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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Carmack: Rage runs faster on Xbox 360

Tyrannical on 31 July 2009
Reasonable said:

Yah, got you.  Although it's amusing to note that Far Cry (first Crytek engine) really stole a lot of Doom 3's thunder in PC gaming circles when it launched.

Wonder if history will repeat when the first Crytek game hits consoles.

Reading it again I'm also a little stumped by Carmack's comment on the CPU - the PS3 processing power is clearly theoretically higher.  Perhaps he meant for the engine's purposes they were essentially the same.

Still, recent comments from id regarding the tech have seriously jarred with their original 'it's going to be the first true, PC, PS3, 360 engine delivering amazing visuals on each'.

As WereKitten says, it now sounds suspiciously like 'PC, no problem, 360, we got that licked... PS3, not quite there yet...'.

 

Carmack doesn't deal with "theoretical". The PS3's problem is that in practice the Cell is weaker, and the GPU much weaker.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

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BrayanA on 31 July 2009
Reasonable said:
Shadowblind said:
RAZurrection said:
CGI-Quality said:

Really now, he should? So you've must have played God of War III and Uncharted 2.....oh wait.......

I played god of war 3 at e3 and the uncharted 2 beta

god of war is no contest, tbh it wouldn't win best "third person game" graphics of games out now, maybe "best looking action game released in 2010"assuming Castlevania: Lord of Shadows isn't out as well that year

uncharted 2 is close occasionally, but obviously it lacks the technical benchmarks offered that Rage possesses, it's not open world, its not 60fps, it doesn't even let me play split-screen...i guess Naughty Dog are just being lazy.

 

 

 

Note: I don't think he's dissing Uncharted 2 so much as just showing how amazing RAGE looks. Which people should have expected. Its id. Doom 3 was like Crysis when it came out.

I'm pretty pro id and Carmack, but Doom 3 tech was nothing like Crysis.  It was great, but designed around relatively small levels that were essentially corridor crawls and a small number of foes with amazing lighting.  Crysis was designed around vast, open world levels with many foes, and pretty amazing lighting too.  As engines go in terms of design goals, they were pretty different.

OT regarding performance, I hope to see this improve, because of id's original comments, but it seems to me, if this holds true, that they have struggled to produce a single engine which is capable of equally supporting each console.  Looking at the evidence I'm pretty much of a mind that to get the best out of each you need at least a console specific version - i.e. not two fully seperate engines, but certainly two cuts of code where certain elements are different to exploit the very different PS3/360 architectures.

 

I hope you have in mind that Doom 3 come out August 2004 and Crysis in November 2007. That is more then 3 years. This is a huge period for a game engine.

For 2004 Doom 3 effects and lighting were amazing.



Lurker on 31 July 2009

Power of the cell baby



Mistershine on 31 July 2009
Cypher1980 said:
They need the SON Y Crack Coding team to get in their and talk to all the "LAZY" devs at Id Software.

What has Carmack ever written anyways ?


Sarcasm, right?



sinha on 31 July 2009
tyig said:
One play disc and 3 install discs?

Let's hope this is the case.



We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that they [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine and half years? It's a learning process. - SCEI president Kaz Hirai

It's a virus where you buy it and you play it with your friends and they're like, "Oh my God that's so cool, I'm gonna go buy it." So you stop playing it after two months, but they buy it and they stop playing it after two months but they've showed it to someone else who then go out and buy it and so on. Everyone I know bought one and nobody turns it on. - Epic Games president Mike Capps

We have a real culture of thrift. The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games. - Activision CEO Bobby Kotick

 

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Sardauk on 31 July 2009

Another evidence that the CELL is not the powerful juggernaut that Sony promised us...
It is only marketing...



 

Evan Wells (Uncharted 2): I think the differences that you see between any two games has much more to do with the developer than whether it’s on the Xbox or PS3.

XxXProphecyXxX on 31 July 2009

LOL 4 disc?????? same as doom for 360?



Reasonable on 31 July 2009
Tyrannical said:
Reasonable said:

Yah, got you.  Although it's amusing to note that Far Cry (first Crytek engine) really stole a lot of Doom 3's thunder in PC gaming circles when it launched.

Wonder if history will repeat when the first Crytek game hits consoles.

Reading it again I'm also a little stumped by Carmack's comment on the CPU - the PS3 processing power is clearly theoretically higher.  Perhaps he meant for the engine's purposes they were essentially the same.

Still, recent comments from id regarding the tech have seriously jarred with their original 'it's going to be the first true, PC, PS3, 360 engine delivering amazing visuals on each'.

As WereKitten says, it now sounds suspiciously like 'PC, no problem, 360, we got that licked... PS3, not quite there yet...'.

 

Carmack doesn't deal with "theoretical". The PS3's problem is that in practice the Cell is weaker, and the GPU much weaker.

I see no evidence the Cell is weaker, in fact I'm pretty sure that even though you're unlikely to get close to the theoretical upper limit the PS3 does absolutely offer more processing power vs 360.  The GPU as I said is weaker but is supposed to be supported by SPE when code is well designed for PS3.

The issue is clear - writing great code for the PS3 alone is easy, writing code that will work great on PS3, exploit SPEs, and run great on 360 and PC us much, much harder.

It's a mistake to assume the PS3 is weaker, it's definately not.  The issue is its very hard to write code for both consoles that works equally well.

 

 



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

Sardauk on 31 July 2009
XxXProphecyXxX said:
LOL 4 disc?????? same as doom for 360?

Typical... we are talking about framerate issue and people come back on the storage issue. Anything to try to shoot the 360 hun ?

And it is not 4, it is 2 apparently.



 

Evan Wells (Uncharted 2): I think the differences that you see between any two games has much more to do with the developer than whether it’s on the Xbox or PS3.

Reasonable on 31 July 2009
BrayanA said:
Reasonable said:
Shadowblind said:
RAZurrection said:
CGI-Quality said:

Really now, he should? So you've must have played God of War III and Uncharted 2.....oh wait.......

I played god of war 3 at e3 and the uncharted 2 beta

god of war is no contest, tbh it wouldn't win best "third person game" graphics of games out now, maybe "best looking action game released in 2010"assuming Castlevania: Lord of Shadows isn't out as well that year

uncharted 2 is close occasionally, but obviously it lacks the technical benchmarks offered that Rage possesses, it's not open world, its not 60fps, it doesn't even let me play split-screen...i guess Naughty Dog are just being lazy.

 

 

 

Note: I don't think he's dissing Uncharted 2 so much as just showing how amazing RAGE looks. Which people should have expected. Its id. Doom 3 was like Crysis when it came out.

I'm pretty pro id and Carmack, but Doom 3 tech was nothing like Crysis.  It was great, but designed around relatively small levels that were essentially corridor crawls and a small number of foes with amazing lighting.  Crysis was designed around vast, open world levels with many foes, and pretty amazing lighting too.  As engines go in terms of design goals, they were pretty different.

OT regarding performance, I hope to see this improve, because of id's original comments, but it seems to me, if this holds true, that they have struggled to produce a single engine which is capable of equally supporting each console.  Looking at the evidence I'm pretty much of a mind that to get the best out of each you need at least a console specific version - i.e. not two fully seperate engines, but certainly two cuts of code where certain elements are different to exploit the very different PS3/360 architectures.

 

I hope you have in mind that Doom 3 come out August 2004 and Crysis in November 2007. That is more then 3 years. This is a huge period for a game engine.

For 2004 Doom 3 effects and lighting were amazing.

Who said they weren't?



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...