We don't bash at MS as we're used of them screwing their customers, from Sony we weren't really used to that in the past, until PSP came along. Refering to SCEE, as IMO they're the biggest ass****s in the entire SCE business.

Well I sued to bash MS a lot on GS ... just that Im to tire to start again here on VGC :P

I don't understand...Microsoft still adds games to the BC list as often as they ever had.

The reason people bash Sony is because in the beginning of the generation, and before that, they were in a vastly superior position of both Nintendo and Microsoft - their previous console was well over the 100m sold mark, software was already at 1 billion units for the PS2, the PSP was in a neck-and-neck race with the DS (again at the time, 2005-6) in some markets, and they had a phenominal position.

Fast forward 2 years, and Sony is in the exact opposite position. Due to pricing, they've lost millions of potential PS3 customers. Made a turd of a videogame system (in terms of price/dev archatecture environment), lost nearly every exclusive title outside their 1st party titles, the PSP has dropped like a smelly turd for the most part to the DS, and everything is just aweful for them outside of the PS2.

And not only that, they've backtracked about 500 times on what they've done with their hardware to show their huge blunders. First you had a $600, 60gb PS3 with EE + GS, now we're talking about a $400 unit that actually lacks hardware components.

Microsoft had a strategy with the core + premium, and as much as everyone wants to bash, they've stuck with it. They've never removed important components (would you like the Wii to take out the 512mb flash memory and sell it for $224.99USD?), but just added stuff to fix their problems.

So in 2005 to 2007, you've had:

Nintendo go from a huge failure in the console market, and a vastly weaker position in the handheld market, to on the edge of blowing everyone out on both fronts, expecially the handheld.

Microsoft go from the small upstart with a very limited fanbase, to a moderately larger fanbase, but garnering alot of the old 120m+ core PS2 users, and actually has momentum

Sony go from the king of the world, to getting stuck on the Titanic on both console and handheld fronts.


I do think Sony is making the right move with a 40gb model....But I feel removing BC alltogether is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever. As much as everyone bashes MS's BC, atleast it's there, and works. And MS won't drop support for it.

I think at the begining, with the exception of the no HDD oversight, the 360 was fine with just the 2 SKUs and then the added 3rd SKU, that's not confusing, it's just choice.
With the PS3 they messed up because everthing kept changing and getting more and more complex, originally there was the 20 and the 60G, which was fine, then they took out the hardware BC for the Eu version and didn't give them a 20G at all, then they took out the 20G in the US....later adding an 80G and not makiong any more 60G....followed by the rumours of a 40G which is now announced for Eu where they are phasing out the 60G, going on record to say no PS2 BC for the 40G in Eu (an announcement i find strange if they are planning to add software BC...as that is already how it is in Eu so why was it such an announcement?)
and now there is a rumour (though if it is BS then we can ignore this) of a 160G in Jp
The Japan situation for the PS3 to me seems fine, it's nice and simple with the original 20G and 60G, and possibly adding a 160G....but in the western world everything has got very confusing (i assume i got the above list correct)

the 360 i think is also about to get confusing with the Core/Arcade thing, but i'm not sure whether that is just a core with a bundle added.

Also, Chichimyro -

As an Xbox gamer, I'm highly impressed with your level of unintelligence with Xbox software. It's laughable that you think the only good games were Halo and Ninja Gaiden, and everything else was mediocre. Which leads me to think you've never actually played an Xbox, or it's games.

The Xbox actually had a great lineup of games. The issue was that the greatest games never recieved the Halo-level hype, because the best games never reached 1m units sold.


If your ever around an Xbox, try:

Fable - (great Zelda-esque game. Short, but very good, amazing graphics for 04-05)

Knights of the Old Republic - (quite possibly one of the best Western RPGs of all time. Ever.)

The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind - (again, one of the best Western RPGs ever made. Definately one of the first times in many, many years a top-end PC RPG made it's way to a console)

Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders + Heros (a highly intuitive RTS/Hack N Slash game, with one of the best interwoven storylines in a long, long while.)

Shattered Union/Dai Senraku 7 (Both awesome isometric strategy/war games. DS7 was just...Ungodly good.)

Forza Motorsports 1 (better than any simulation driving game up till FM2, ever. By far the best made, and vastly superior to Gran Turismo in every simulation way).

Jade Empire (similar to KOTOR, another great WRPG.)

Soul Calibur 2

Panzer Dragoon Oorta
Psyconauts
Beyond Good & Evil


If you compare the reviews of the Xbox games to Gamecube Games, the Xbox lineup is quite a bit superior, if you like "their types of games". So mediocrity is only if your not a fan of the great Xbox lineup.

I am too slow typing, everything I say below has been said above.

MS has handled the introduction of the 3 SKU's well. You may or may not agree that it is a good idea to have 3, but at least their message has been clear and consistent from the beginning:

Core/Arcade: Entry level, no BC possible, limited online potential.
Pro: Does everything
Elite: For people that do a lot of downloads, media, demos, what ever.

The first two were planned from launch and no features have been taken out, the elite was added later to offer the larger hard drive while preserving the existing price points. The only feature changes they have made to any SKU is to ADD HDMI to the original two. Adding features over time is nothing new and certainly nothing to complain about. The same SKUs have been launched in the same order in all regions, though the Elite has some some unusually long delays being launched outside NA.

Now compare that to Sony's process for introducing SKUs. Before launch in NA and Japan they had two models, the 60G and 20G. Primary differences were HD size and HDMI port from what I remember, but due to pressure 2 months before launch they added the HDMI port to the 20G. So now the only difference for $100 is 40G. Then they launch in PAL with a new 60G that has different BC because they drop the EE and no 20G model. Then they launch an in Korea with only an 80G with no EE, but with no announce plan for other regions. Then the 20G is quietly discontinued in NA. Then the 80G shows up in NA but not PAL, again no announcement on plans. Now a 40G is announced for PAL with fewer features then the reduced BC 60G they already had. Again no announcement of plans for other regions. Add to this the confusion about rumble, though this is relatively minor.

So far that is 6 different SKUs in different regions in different orders. Some newer models with reduced feature sets at higher prices then older models with greater features, e.g. in NA 80G only advantage of 60G is increased HD but the 60 retains the EE engine.

The worst of all this though is not the existence of all of these SKUs but the lack of clear communication form Sony about what the product line looks like and where it is going. I know they have been in reactionary mode trying to recover from initial launch mistakes. Instead of making clear, simple and well communicated strategy changes they are throwing apparently random combinations of features out and seeing what sells. This leaves a lot of consumers feeling like test subjects and even more feeling confused about what is coming next.

As far as MSs problems, I think they have received their fair share of trashing for RRoD and they deserve more if the problems continue with the new models. You would be pretty hard pressed to find a way to call adding HDMI support bad, it does not change how games need to be developed so existing customers do not lose anything only new customers get an advantage. In terms of MS quality of BC, they have gotten complaints but they have been pretty clear form the beginning how it worked and it has not changed.

Now compared to Nintendo the MS product line is unnecessarily complicated and confusing, but if you are at all objective you have to admit that Sony is even more so with less clear reasons for their decisions.

They bash sony because its nintendo's competition.

Do you bash MS and Nintendojust because is Sony competition???

Though Sony has been utterly boneheaded in their decisions and direction the past few years, I personally feel Microsoft is the worst thing to happen to the videogame industry.

•Microsoft wants to shorten game generations to 4 years instead of the usual 5+. Expect them to make the new XBox and have it on the market in 2009 should they decide to continue in this business.

•After the original XBox which was more stable they somehow surpassed the shoddy craftsmanship record of the PS2 with the XBox 360. That is unexcusable to have that many systems break down that often. Simply unexcusable.

•They insist on raising the pricing bar of game consoles. $300 (US) should be absolute CAP for a game console and really most don't even dig anything past $200 unless it's really worth it. Extra bad considering we're paying more money for shoddier merchandise.

•Talk of microtransactions and in-game advertisement coming into the game thanks to them. That will kill this industry if it ever took root. People use pop-up blockers to AVOID ads on the internet and pay for HBO to escape commercials along with buying DVRs. Who wants ads in their videogame? And who wants to parcel out extras in the game with payment plans? That should be unlocked, not bought.

•They're part of the reason game development costs keep rising which would one day be the achilles' heel of the business once 'costs in' keep growing in ratio from 'buys out'. More money pumped in for the same or lesser returns. Crash-worthy.

•Though they've refined network play and made it mainstream for consoles, they don't do much innovating in hardware or software. Nothing really comes from Microsoft itself but rather its bought and paid for 2nd parties some of which get incorporated as 1st when fully owned. Keeping the medium fresh is all important in the gaming industry. Sega, Nintendo, & SNK represented hardware makers who were also their own software makers. The REAL game companies. That's almost a lost element in gaming nowadays save for one who shall remain Nameless.

•All companies are in this for the money like any business but it seems that's ALL MS is interested in for the gaming business (maybe that's why green is the XBox's color). I don't think they respect the craft or the soul of this business. This is just another bauble in their corporate chest of jewels and their attitude towards this industry reflects this. All they're REALLY here for is for upending Sony from the home media convergence plan and something tells me as soon as they stop Sony their digs in the gaming business will release. Why else would someone lose billions and continue forward? This is just adding onto their monopoly and keeping them from being stagnant (the operating system empire won't last forever).

•Related to that last point is the reckless money-dumping towards developers and their whole gaming division. A company that doesn't profit from a venture will not stay within that venture. For game fans currently XBox 360 is where it's at but business wise they are still on shaky ground. I don't think they've profitted yet and eventually somebody's (investor) gonna throw in the towel. Even Bill will start wondering why his couch cushions sit so much lower than normal soon realizing that his lost couch change is being wasted on this gaming adventure.

Microsoft's saving grace is that they are an American company making consoles, something that hasn't been seen for over 10 years & not successfully done in about 25. They've built up a strong library and have usurped PS3's role as the powerhouse machine of graphical 'hardcore' glory. If they launched alongside PS3 this race may have been different (only between those two of course). The headstart paid off in spades. And they have that distinguishing feature known as XBox Live which is a natural extension of their networking capabilities. The abrupt memorable name helps alot because it's easier to say and remember "XBOX" rather than "PLAYSTATION" (not easier than Wii though ). And of course that they have nearly limitless money to cover any mistakes. Plus their XBox team has developed a personal relationship with their customers.

Of those points I mentioned my biggest problems with the XBox 360 are its high cost and shoddy craftsmanship. If those weren't there all those points would still be valid but it would be offset by the competition enough where it wouldn't matter as much. The fact that people accept this kind of stuff baffles me and always will. I consider myself a customer NEVER a consumer. I don't eat whatever placed in front of me just like that. I don't want these things being accepted as normal or acceptable. I didn't like that crappy craftsmanship of the PS2 and I DEFINITELY don't like how XBox 360 is made. So surprising since original XBox was pretty sturdy.

I always said Microsoft is far worse than Sony for the videogame business. I DO respect the good things they've done & it's not my place to bash consoles. Let the people enjoy what they like. If you don't like it, don't buy it and leave it at that, that's how I feel. But these are MY feelings on Microsoft's role in this business.

Sony gets slammed because they were so loud with their proclamations making them memorable and then they backslid on their promises putting egg on their faces. They got full of themselves and then started to look clumsy trying to repair the damage. They look inept to many people and it's surprising to see the former market leader turn to market loser. So people take their shots based on the hubris, arrogance, gall they shouted for so many years with the PSP and PS3. And some of it is based on old hype routines from the PS2 with the Emotion Engine stuff and the jack into the Matrix/Toy Story kind of words Kutaragi was known for saying.

But in all honesty if you look at what's going on Microsoft needs a much closer looking at because they have the potential to wreck this industry if they ever became #1.

All I can say is thank God for the Last Action Hero, Nintendo, for bringing out the Wii. It was just in time and so needed because this industry was soon to head for darker days whether people believe it or not.

John Lucas

Thank you for bringing the classical stereotype of the Sony fan to the spotlight. Thank you.

Microsoft has been bashed because of that too. Why do you think I have not bought a X360 yet? Because they release SKU after SKU... Core, Pro, Elite, Falcon, Falcon Core, Falcon Pro, Falcon Elite, Falcon Royal, etc.

I want them to decide NOW.