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Barozi said:
lestatdark said:
Barozi said:
lestatdark said:

Thank you for calling us a "mediocre" team >_>.

We might not play in the "OH MY GOSH BEST LEAGUES IN THE WORLD EVER", but you know what? We have as many international titles as some of the "Sharks" in European history. Up until 2010, we had as many CL wins as Man. Utd, we are, on par with Liverpool, the other team in history to win a consecutive UEFA cup & CL, we are one of the teams with not only the most participations in the CL knockout rounds but also one of the teams that has made it most times to the quarter finals (at least) in CL history, we're also one of the very few clubs in the world to have won the CL, Super Cup and International Cup of the same season.

If this is "mediocre", then hell, there's a lot of shitty teams. Please tell me, how many international titles does Arsenal have? Inter must also be a "mediocre" team for having won 7 international titles, the same as Porto. 

Educate yourselves better before you call anyone's team "mediocre". 

Porto is not a mediocre team by normal standards, but also not among the best.
Arsenal would be the only team of the ones you mentioned that would actually be inferior trophy wise.

Many of the competitions are worthless. Only ones that count are Champions League (European Champion Clubs' Cup), Europa League (UEFA Cup) and maaaybe the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup.

ManU, Inter and Liverpool are still miles ahead.

Oh I know we're not one of the best, by far. We don't have neither the monetary prowress that the top teams of Europe have to attract the best players, nor do we have a league with enough visibility to gain that monetary prowress. In comparison, our yearly budget is equivalent to one of the bottom teams of the Premier League, La Liga, Bundesliga or Serie A. 

But in terms of competitiveness and making the most of what we have, we are amongst the best out there. There's a reason a lot of top coaches and analysts around Europe consider that either Porto and Benfica could have the capacity to fight for 3rd place on La Liga or struggle with the 6 top teams of the Premier League, even with our current conditions. If we somehow managed to gain more visibility and budget to attract even better players, I don't have any doubts that we would be amongst the very best teams on Europe. 

I just hate it when someone out there call our team mediocre, mostly because we lack the visibility and media impact that the best teams out there have. Last year, Porto was considered to be the best team behind Barça in many international ratings, statistics and analysts, not only for our insane winning streak on both the domestic and international sides, but also because our playstyle was pretty good to behold too. The problem is that it's easy to slip out of the media and public's opinion radar when you don't have the dimension that the european big sharks have (also we've had a pretty bad season by our own standards, even if we're on the verge of winning the championship this season). 

Portugal has the huge benefit that they get lots of young talented Brazilian players. The amount of talented Portuguese players is not as high. Looking at the current top clubs, only Braga has a reasonable amount of Portuguese players.
Usually the top talents leave the Portuguese clubs, but the not as talented ones stay, so they still have a constant stream of decent players.
Something what a comparable league, such as the Dutch league, doesn't have. They purely rely on their own players.... and then sell them while they're young.

You don't see many English, Italian, Spanish or German players playing in other leagues, because they don't have to. "Your" talented players need to get a new mentality to stay in the country and this is achieved best when they are young.
Similar to Germany after the Euros 1988 and World Cup win in 1990. We were for a short period of time the best league in the world. Then almost everyone stayed in Italy or elsewhere and our league was left with few worldclass players and almost no young ones.
Now we fought our way back into the top 3 and that is purely due to our youngsters who stayed in our league even though they have offerings from top class clubs around Europe.
At the moment only Özil and Khedira left Germany rather early and now Marko Marin follows (Chelsea) because he disappointed at Bremen after his first season.

The only German club that could spent tons of money is Bayern Munich, but they only do it occasionally (Gomez, Robben, Ribery, Neuer). Around $100m - Probably what other clubs spent in one season *cough* C. Ronaldo *cough*. But many more important players came from their youth division. Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Alaba, Badstuber, Contento, Müller, Kroos still play for Bayern; Ottl, Guerrero, Hitzlsperger, Lell and Rensing still in the Bundesliga; Trochowski, Hargreaves and Misimovic elsewhere in Europe.

Dortmund saw a similar trend and that made them to the domestic champion in 2011 and 2012:
Götze, Großkreuz, Schmelzer, Sahin plus the now returning Reus

You don't need to attract players, you need to breed them. Spain is the best example that it works, Germany too and Italy is the best example that relying on foreign players might fail eventually. I'm not dooming anything, but England could be next.

I agree completely, and the influx of foreign players from south america and the outflux of portuguese players from our own league is also slowly killing our national team as well. Our talented young players almost always leave our clubs right after their formation in the Youth teams and go into other leagues where they have to compete with the local talent to get playing chances. 

The problem with our current club and league mentality is that we think that in order to stay competitive in the international scene, we need to rely on quick and accessible talent, but there's also a much bigger problem. The top 3 portuguese teams rely a lot on the dealings of those players because we need to have a constant flux of money from them to keep our finances up. We don't have the negotiative conditions from TV rights, sponsors and other income sources to keep our current finances, heck even the prize money from CL participations isn't sometimes enough (see Benfica and their huge negative assets). Also, we could never afford to even come to 1/4th of spending 100m $ on a season, heck, Porto's biggest sign so far, Danilo for 15m € was considered to be a huge gamble and a huge financial risk. Our signings usually vary between 3 - 7m € and we never spend over 25m € a season, because we just don't have the cash for it.

Personally, I think that portuguese teams have to rethink their strategy and start from scratch. They can still be lucrative with young portuguese talent a couple of years down the road, if they start thinking in the long term and start investing properly on them. We have proven evidence that portuguese players do have talent and can be useful for top team scenarios if carefully breed and trained, but sadly I just don't see the teams having that kind of long term vision.





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lestatdark said:
Barozi said:

Portugal has the huge benefit that they get lots of young talented Brazilian players. The amount of talented Portuguese players is not as high. Looking at the current top clubs, only Braga has a reasonable amount of Portuguese players.
Usually the top talents leave the Portuguese clubs, but the not as talented ones stay, so they still have a constant stream of decent players.
Something what a comparable league, such as the Dutch league, doesn't have. They purely rely on their own players.... and then sell them while they're young.

You don't see many English, Italian, Spanish or German players playing in other leagues, because they don't have to. "Your" talented players need to get a new mentality to stay in the country and this is achieved best when they are young.
Similar to Germany after the Euros 1988 and World Cup win in 1990. We were for a short period of time the best league in the world. Then almost everyone stayed in Italy or elsewhere and our league was left with few worldclass players and almost no young ones.
Now we fought our way back into the top 3 and that is purely due to our youngsters who stayed in our league even though they have offerings from top class clubs around Europe.
At the moment only Özil and Khedira left Germany rather early and now Marko Marin follows (Chelsea) because he disappointed at Bremen after his first season.

The only German club that could spent tons of money is Bayern Munich, but they only do it occasionally (Gomez, Robben, Ribery, Neuer). Around $100m - Probably what other clubs spent in one season *cough* C. Ronaldo *cough*. But many more important players came from their youth division. Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Alaba, Badstuber, Contento, Müller, Kroos still play for Bayern; Ottl, Guerrero, Hitzlsperger, Lell and Rensing still in the Bundesliga; Trochowski, Hargreaves and Misimovic elsewhere in Europe.

Dortmund saw a similar trend and that made them to the domestic champion in 2011 and 2012:
Götze, Großkreuz, Schmelzer, Sahin plus the now returning Reus

You don't need to attract players, you need to breed them. Spain is the best example that it works, Germany too and Italy is the best example that relying on foreign players might fail eventually. I'm not dooming anything, but England could be next.

I agree completely, and the influx of foreign players from south america and the outflux of portuguese players from our own league is also slowly killing our national team as well. Our talented young players almost always leave our clubs right after their formation in the Youth teams and go into other leagues where they have to compete with the local talent to get playing chances. 

The problem with our current club and league mentality is that we think that in order to stay competitive in the international scene, we need to rely on quick and accessible talent, but there's also a much bigger problem. The top 3 portuguese teams rely a lot on the dealings of those players because we need to have a constant flux of money from them to keep our finances up. We don't have the negotiative conditions from TV rights, sponsors and other income sources to keep our current finances, heck even the prize money from CL participations isn't sometimes enough (see Benfica and their huge negative assets). Also, we could never afford to even come to 1/4th of spending 100m $ on a season, heck, Porto's biggest sign so far, Danilo for 15m € was considered to be a huge gamble and a huge financial risk. Our signings usually vary between 3 - 7m € and we never spend over 25m € a season, because we just don't have the cash for it.

Personally, I think that portuguese teams have to rethink their strategy and start from scratch. They can still be lucrative with young portuguese talent a couple of years down the road, if they start thinking in the long term and start investing properly on them. We have proven evidence that portuguese players do have talent and can be useful for top team scenarios if carefully breed and trained, but sadly I just don't see the teams having that kind of long term vision.

http://www.transfermarkt.de/en/superliga/transferuebersicht/wettbewerb_PO1.html

Well that's a bit more than $25m a season :P
But it's not too bad since Porto often times makes more money out of transfers.

Werder Bremen is currently doing what you described in your last paragraph. Sold all their top players and now do a complete restart with young players.  However their youth academy isn't as strong as many others in Germany. Once again they missed an international spot in the league (only by a few points). I just hope it will be worth it, because that was a very radical move and might not pay off.



Barozi said:
lestatdark said:
Barozi said:

Portugal has the huge benefit that they get lots of young talented Brazilian players. The amount of talented Portuguese players is not as high. Looking at the current top clubs, only Braga has a reasonable amount of Portuguese players.
Usually the top talents leave the Portuguese clubs, but the not as talented ones stay, so they still have a constant stream of decent players.
Something what a comparable league, such as the Dutch league, doesn't have. They purely rely on their own players.... and then sell them while they're young.

You don't see many English, Italian, Spanish or German players playing in other leagues, because they don't have to. "Your" talented players need to get a new mentality to stay in the country and this is achieved best when they are young.
Similar to Germany after the Euros 1988 and World Cup win in 1990. We were for a short period of time the best league in the world. Then almost everyone stayed in Italy or elsewhere and our league was left with few worldclass players and almost no young ones.
Now we fought our way back into the top 3 and that is purely due to our youngsters who stayed in our league even though they have offerings from top class clubs around Europe.
At the moment only Özil and Khedira left Germany rather early and now Marko Marin follows (Chelsea) because he disappointed at Bremen after his first season.

The only German club that could spent tons of money is Bayern Munich, but they only do it occasionally (Gomez, Robben, Ribery, Neuer). Around $100m - Probably what other clubs spent in one season *cough* C. Ronaldo *cough*. But many more important players came from their youth division. Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Alaba, Badstuber, Contento, Müller, Kroos still play for Bayern; Ottl, Guerrero, Hitzlsperger, Lell and Rensing still in the Bundesliga; Trochowski, Hargreaves and Misimovic elsewhere in Europe.

Dortmund saw a similar trend and that made them to the domestic champion in 2011 and 2012:
Götze, Großkreuz, Schmelzer, Sahin plus the now returning Reus

You don't need to attract players, you need to breed them. Spain is the best example that it works, Germany too and Italy is the best example that relying on foreign players might fail eventually. I'm not dooming anything, but England could be next.

I agree completely, and the influx of foreign players from south america and the outflux of portuguese players from our own league is also slowly killing our national team as well. Our talented young players almost always leave our clubs right after their formation in the Youth teams and go into other leagues where they have to compete with the local talent to get playing chances. 

The problem with our current club and league mentality is that we think that in order to stay competitive in the international scene, we need to rely on quick and accessible talent, but there's also a much bigger problem. The top 3 portuguese teams rely a lot on the dealings of those players because we need to have a constant flux of money from them to keep our finances up. We don't have the negotiative conditions from TV rights, sponsors and other income sources to keep our current finances, heck even the prize money from CL participations isn't sometimes enough (see Benfica and their huge negative assets). Also, we could never afford to even come to 1/4th of spending 100m $ on a season, heck, Porto's biggest sign so far, Danilo for 15m € was considered to be a huge gamble and a huge financial risk. Our signings usually vary between 3 - 7m € and we never spend over 25m € a season, because we just don't have the cash for it.

Personally, I think that portuguese teams have to rethink their strategy and start from scratch. They can still be lucrative with young portuguese talent a couple of years down the road, if they start thinking in the long term and start investing properly on them. We have proven evidence that portuguese players do have talent and can be useful for top team scenarios if carefully breed and trained, but sadly I just don't see the teams having that kind of long term vision.

http://www.transfermarkt.de/en/superliga/transferuebersicht/wettbewerb_PO1.html

Well that's a bit more than $25m a season :P
But it's not too bad since Porto often times makes more money out of transfers.

Werder Bremen is currently doing what you described in your last paragraph. Sold all their top players and now do a complete restart with young players.  However their youth academy isn't as strong as many others in Germany. Once again they missed an international spot in the league (only by a few points). I just hope it will be worth it, because that was a very radical move and might not pay off.

This season was a very atypical one in terms of transfers, since we're usually in the numbers that Benfica pulled, that's why we're in the Red when it comes to the yearly budget (mostly because the transfer money from Falcao hasn't come through entirely). It was a badly planned season overall, starting from the transfer values, choice of players for key positions, manager choice and way too big of a budget for a club of our size. Last season with less than half of our current budget and only 2 or 3 low value transfers we managed to pull much better results than this one.

We don't have that good of an youth academy as well, that's one of my main concerns too. We usually form a good amount of central defenders and defensive midfielders, but we lack creative players and strikers. We need a ground basis reform that has to start from the Youth academy if we ever want to have a shot at it, but I think that if we have to suffer a drought of titles in order to get it done, it will pay off in the future, not only in terms of our own club but also in national terms. 



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lestatdark said:
kennyrester said:
Barozi said:
kennyrester said:
Barozi said:
Whoever comes next will be the new star manager. Seriously every average manager would look great when they have a team like Barca. Guardiola has proven next to nothing. I'm not saying he is bad, but he didn't really show much skill Barca.


Barca are of course a great team but he is still the most successful manager in their history. He took over a team that had won one league title this century and had just finished 18 points off the top and took them to a first ever La Liga, Copa del Rey and Champions League treble (by any team) in his first season in charge. He then won the next two La Ligas and another Champions League and another eight trophies. What more can a man do?

He took a struggling team  and within a year had turned them into arguably the greatest team in the history of football. What else could he possibly have done to show his talent?

Do that with a mediocre team.

Sorry, i should have said what else could he realistically have done. So presumably you don't rate Alex Ferguson's achievements at United, Wenger's at Arsenal, Mourinho's at Chelsea, Inter or Madrid, and so on, because they either inherited good teams or spent millions to build them. In fact, other than Porto in 2004, when was the last time a "Mediocre" team won anything of note. All this Guardiola/Barca hate is just people spotting success and trying to look clever and different by slagging them off. In my opinion.

Edit: Liverpool in 2005, that's when. Other than that though...

Thank you for calling us a "mediocre" team >_>.

We might not play in the "OH MY GOSH BEST LEAGUES IN THE WORLD EVER", but you know what? We have as many international titles as some of the "Sharks" in European history. Up until 2010, we had as many CL wins as Man. Utd, we are, on par with Liverpool, the other team in history to win a consecutive UEFA cup & CL, we are one of the teams with not only the most participations in the CL knockout rounds but also one of the teams that has made it most times to the quarter finals (at least) in CL history, we're also one of the very few clubs in the world to have won the CL, Super Cup and International Cup of the same season.

If this is "mediocre", then hell, there's a lot of shitty teams. Please tell me, how many international titles does Arsenal have? Inter must also be a "mediocre" team for having won 7 international titles, the same as Porto. 

Educate yourselves better before you call anyone's team "mediocre". 

I put the word mediocre in quotation marks for a reason. 

I used it in relation to Champion's League winners. I don't think anyone would really argue that Porto are currently one of the very best teams that regularly compete in Europe, neither are they one of the worst.

As for all the history stuff (i.e. the majority of your post), that's totally irrelevant to my post. I was talking specifically about the team that won it in 2004. Notice I also called 2005 Liverpool a mediocre team when historically they obviously aren't.



kennyrester said:
lestatdark said:
kennyrester said:
Barozi said:
kennyrester said:
Barozi said:
Whoever comes next will be the new star manager. Seriously every average manager would look great when they have a team like Barca. Guardiola has proven next to nothing. I'm not saying he is bad, but he didn't really show much skill Barca.


Barca are of course a great team but he is still the most successful manager in their history. He took over a team that had won one league title this century and had just finished 18 points off the top and took them to a first ever La Liga, Copa del Rey and Champions League treble (by any team) in his first season in charge. He then won the next two La Ligas and another Champions League and another eight trophies. What more can a man do?

He took a struggling team  and within a year had turned them into arguably the greatest team in the history of football. What else could he possibly have done to show his talent?

Do that with a mediocre team.

Sorry, i should have said what else could he realistically have done. So presumably you don't rate Alex Ferguson's achievements at United, Wenger's at Arsenal, Mourinho's at Chelsea, Inter or Madrid, and so on, because they either inherited good teams or spent millions to build them. In fact, other than Porto in 2004, when was the last time a "Mediocre" team won anything of note. All this Guardiola/Barca hate is just people spotting success and trying to look clever and different by slagging them off. In my opinion.

Edit: Liverpool in 2005, that's when. Other than that though...

Thank you for calling us a "mediocre" team >_>.

We might not play in the "OH MY GOSH BEST LEAGUES IN THE WORLD EVER", but you know what? We have as many international titles as some of the "Sharks" in European history. Up until 2010, we had as many CL wins as Man. Utd, we are, on par with Liverpool, the other team in history to win a consecutive UEFA cup & CL, we are one of the teams with not only the most participations in the CL knockout rounds but also one of the teams that has made it most times to the quarter finals (at least) in CL history, we're also one of the very few clubs in the world to have won the CL, Super Cup and International Cup of the same season.

If this is "mediocre", then hell, there's a lot of shitty teams. Please tell me, how many international titles does Arsenal have? Inter must also be a "mediocre" team for having won 7 international titles, the same as Porto. 

Educate yourselves better before you call anyone's team "mediocre". 

I put the word mediocre in quotation marks for a reason. 

I used it in relation to Champion's League winners. I don't think anyone would really argue that Porto are currently one of the very best teams that regularly compete in Europe, neither are they one of the worst.

As for all the history stuff (i.e. the majority of your post), that's totally irrelevant to my post. I was talking specifically about the team that won it in 2004. Notice I also called 2005 Liverpool a mediocre team when historically they obviously aren't.

I missinterpreted your post, for that i'm sorry



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Arsenal sign Podolski :D

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/arsenal-agree-deal-for-podolski



CITTTYYY!!!! 1 - 0



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!) 

City wins!! City takes top spot on goal difference

not a good match but a very high paced passioned match..



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!) 

only watched the last 6 minutes >.>



Oh dear oh dear. United were dreadful, totally overrun in midfield None of them covered themselves in glory but I think Jones in particular had a horrible game. So they have to rely on a favour from Newcastle now...