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Forums - Nintendo - To all of those that think SEGA's both hardcore games bombed.

txrattlesnake said:
HappySqurriel said:
txrattlesnake said:
According to my math, they both needed to sell 750,000 copies in order to bring true profit to their publisher, and I don't think either one has reached 750,000 yet.

(games and movies have to earn twice what they cost to make in order to earn satisfactory profit, so if both games cost $30.00 in the store and they took ten million to make. They would have to earn back 20 million dollars (24 million counting advertising), so if they sold a million that would be 3 times what they cost to make and more than enough to justify sequels. If they sold 500,000 copies, they would only be earning 1.5 what they cost to make which isn't enough. So, they both needed to sell 750,000 to earn back twice what they cost to make.)

So, I guess we can conclude by your math that Metal Gear Solid 4 and Killzone 2 didn't bring a true profit to their publisher ...


Well, they're working on it. MGS 4 will be selling more copies as a greatest hits game when the PS3's audience goes over 5 million in Japan probably by the end of March 2010 following the releases of GTA III and FFXIII as PS3 exclusives in Japan later this year.

And, Killzone 2 might not appeal so much to Japanese gamers for it to get a real boost in sales as the PS3's Japanese sales numbers continue to grow. However the strengthened support from Japanese devleopers for the PS3 which will be coming the PS3's way in the wake of the sales growth I mentioned previously that will cause definite distinction between the PS3 and 360 libraries later in this gen may lead more people to pick up Killzone 2 later in the gen.

Of course, I don't know how much it cost to make either MGS4 or KZ2. If it cost 60 million to make both MGS4 and KZ2. Then priced at $60.00 at launch, if they sold 1 million copies each they would be breaking even at one million sales, but to get the satisfactory profit I wrote about before, then MGS 4 would have to sell 2 million copies and KZ2 would have to sell 2 million copies. MGS 4 has already sold 4 million copies, so it is probably making a profit and it looks to me to be fairly likely that KZ2 will sell more than 2 million copies.

 

Your assumptions are very poor ...

First off, Killzone 2 and Metal Gear Solid 4 have had some of the largest development and marketing budgets of the generation and a $60 Million combined budget for each game seems like a massive underestimate. After all, Killzone 2 was estimated at 45 Million Euros before it saw a year delay, and Konami bragged about a 200+ person development team on Metal Gear Solid 4 which took over 3 years to complete.

Beyond that, selling a game for $60 in store would translate to (close to) $25 revenue for a third party publisher after retailer profit, physical costs (production and distribution), and licencing fees; it would be more for a first party game, but any assumption that is beyond $35 is laughable.

If Konami needed to double their costs to justify Metal Gear Solid 4 being made, Metal Gear Solid 4 would never have been produced ...



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HappySqurriel said:
txrattlesnake said:
HappySqurriel said:
txrattlesnake said:
According to my math, they both needed to sell 750,000 copies in order to bring true profit to their publisher, and I don't think either one has reached 750,000 yet.

(games and movies have to earn twice what they cost to make in order to earn satisfactory profit, so if both games cost $30.00 in the store and they took ten million to make. They would have to earn back 20 million dollars (24 million counting advertising), so if they sold a million that would be 3 times what they cost to make and more than enough to justify sequels. If they sold 500,000 copies, they would only be earning 1.5 what they cost to make which isn't enough. So, they both needed to sell 750,000 to earn back twice what they cost to make.)

So, I guess we can conclude by your math that Metal Gear Solid 4 and Killzone 2 didn't bring a true profit to their publisher ...


Well, they're working on it. MGS 4 will be selling more copies as a greatest hits game when the PS3's audience goes over 5 million in Japan probably by the end of March 2010 following the releases of GTA III and FFXIII as PS3 exclusives in Japan later this year.

And, Killzone 2 might not appeal so much to Japanese gamers for it to get a real boost in sales as the PS3's Japanese sales numbers continue to grow. However the strengthened support from Japanese devleopers for the PS3 which will be coming the PS3's way in the wake of the sales growth I mentioned previously that will cause definite distinction between the PS3 and 360 libraries later in this gen may lead more people to pick up Killzone 2 later in the gen.

Of course, I don't know how much it cost to make either MGS4 or KZ2. If it cost 60 million to make both MGS4 and KZ2. Then priced at $60.00 at launch, if they sold 1 million copies each they would be breaking even at one million sales, but to get the satisfactory profit I wrote about before, then MGS 4 would have to sell 2 million copies and KZ2 would have to sell 2 million copies. MGS 4 has already sold 4 million copies, so it is probably making a profit and it looks to me to be fairly likely that KZ2 will sell more than 2 million copies.

 

Your assumptions are very poor ...

First off, Killzone 2 and Metal Gear Solid 4 have had some of the largest development and marketing budgets of the generation and a $60 Million combined budget for each game seems like a massive underestimate. After all, Killzone 2 was estimated at 45 Million Euros before it saw a year delay, and Konami bragged about a 200+ person development team on Metal Gear Solid 4 which took over 3 years to complete.

Beyond that, selling a game for $60 in store would translate to (close to) $25 revenue for a third party publisher after retailer profit, physical costs (production and distribution), and licencing fees; it would be more for a first party game, but any assumption that is beyond $35 is laughable.

If Konami needed to double their costs to justify Metal Gear Solid 4 being made, Metal Gear Solid 4 would never have been produced ...


      If MGS 4 cost $100 million to make, then it would need to make $200 million to earn the right profit.  And 4 million sold at $60 would take it past that number.

     I am basing these assumptions on a documentary I watched about the making of Peter Jackson's King Kong.  They talked about how much money it cost to make the film, then they said in order for it to earn a profit it had to make twice what it cost to make the movie.



I think I've seen an estimate of $65 million for KZ2, so it would need to sell about 2.3 million copies to make a profit and it looks like it will do so.



txrattlesnake said:


If MGS 4 cost $100 million to make, then it would need to make $200 million to earn the right profit. And 4 million sold at $60 would take it past that number.

I am basing these assumptions on a documentary I watched about the making of Peter Jackson's King Kong. They talked about how much money it cost to make the film, then they said in order for it to earn a profit it had to make twice what it cost to make the movie.


4 Million sold at $25 (the ammount Konami probably gets off of a $60 game sale) works out to be $100 Million; or the ammount you assumed that Metal Gear Solif 4 cost. If Konami needs $100 Million in profit to justify $100 Million in development cost, and therefore sales of 8 Million units, they would never have made a game at that budget.

The documentary you watched probably said was that a big budget movie needed a box office (gross revenue) of twice the cost of development to have turned a reasonable profit ...



Soriku said:
psrock said:
This is the saddest thread i have ever read, give it up folks, stop looking for excuses. Many games bomb all the times in all consoles. Why is it so hard to accept, it's not that serious.


A bomb would mean it didn't make a profit, and it's safe to say that's not true about both those games. Even if it was a little profit.

Really? If MH3 would sell less than the other popular versions I am pretty sure it would be called a bomb.



 

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From all the math I've seen in this thread,I've concluded that wii games are waaay more profitable for devs than PS3 games.Cuz here,we're talking about 2 wii games that many considered to have bombed versus 2 PS3 games that many considered to have done pretty well and from our uninformed and speculative math,the wii titles might actually be more profitable....



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Sounds like a load of crap. You dont know the development budget so your whole argument flies out the window.



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txrattlesnake said:
HappySqurriel said:
txrattlesnake said:
According to my math, they both needed to sell 750,000 copies in order to bring true profit to their publisher, and I don't think either one has reached 750,000 yet.

(games and movies have to earn twice what they cost to make in order to earn satisfactory profit, so if both games cost $30.00 in the store and they took ten million to make. They would have to earn back 20 million dollars (24 million counting advertising), so if they sold a million that would be 3 times what they cost to make and more than enough to justify sequels. If they sold 500,000 copies, they would only be earning 1.5 what they cost to make which isn't enough. So, they both needed to sell 750,000 to earn back twice what they cost to make.)

So, I guess we can conclude by your math that Metal Gear Solid 4 and Killzone 2 didn't bring a true profit to their publisher ...


      Well, they're working on it.  MGS 4 will be selling more copies as a greatest hits game when the PS3's audience goes over 5 million in Japan probably by the end of March 2010 following the releases of GT5 and FFXIII as PS3 exclusives in Japan later this year.

      And, Killzone 2 might not appeal so much to Japanese gamers for it to get a real boost in sales as the PS3's Japanese sales numbers continue to grow.  However the strengthened support from Japanese devleopers for the PS3 which will be coming the PS3's way in the wake of the sales growth I mentioned previously that will cause definite distinction between the PS3 and 360 libraries later in this gen may lead more people to pick up Killzone 2 later in the gen.

    Of course, I don't know how much it cost to make either MGS4 or KZ2.  If it cost 60 million to make both MGS4 and KZ2.  Then priced at $60.00 at launch, if they sold 1 million copies each they would be breaking even at one million sales, but to get the satisfactory profit I wrote about before, then MGS 4 would have to sell 2 million copies and KZ2 would have to sell 2 million copies.  MGS 4 has already sold 4 million copies, so it is probably making a profit and it looks to me to be fairly likely that KZ2 will sell more than 2 million copies.

 

     Basically any game or blockbuster movie needs to make back twice what it cost to make to make a profit for its creator and to have money for them to make a sequel.

I would like to know how PS3 is going to sell nearly 2m in Japan in 9 months. Not.. gonna... happen. Also, how can anyone say Madworld has flopped while it's still selling? It's well known Wii titles rely on "legs" more than the HD consoles so to write this game off just yet is pretty silly. I could quite realistically see Madworld havind semi-decent sales for a long time and eventually reaching 500k- 1m sales when all is said and done.



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^I will say that is basically the same thing I said about the Wii when several people were saying it would sell 50 million units by the end of March '09 last fall, and it didn't quite make it.

However, if you notice the PS3 only has to sell 1.75 million copies to reach 5 million and it has at least one and possibly two games coming out later this year in Japan that are in series that typically sell multiple millions of copies in Japan. Also, it wasn't that long ago when the PS3 hit 3 million sold in Japan and it is already up to 3.25 million.



noname2200 said:
Torillian said:

Do you honestly think Madworld cost less than half the price of Valkyria Chronicles, even with the fact that Madworld actually got advertising?

It doesn't seem that unreasonable to me at all to think that: leaving aside the HD vs. SD aspect, VC was made by a team whose history includes high-profile hits (the Sakura Wars series, which spawned its own cafe), while Madworld was the side-project of a new studio. VC has an anime in the works (much like Sakura Wars) and had its own advertising campaign (it's even had a new campaign recently, especially in Japan). It's clear that there were fairly high hopes pinned on VC, especially in comparison to Madworld, and I'd be stunned if the costs didn't reflect that.

Valkyria Chronicles did pretty much the same or better than the Sakura Wars games after those on the Saturn.  I'm not sure why you bring up advertising.  VC might have had some in Japan, but Madworld (in the US) had television advertisements tied with the HotD ones as well as its own campaign.  In the states VC had none outside of maybe some internet ads.

Anyways, nobody knows the budgets or what price sega shipped each unit at, so this topic is rather pointless.  People will just make up numbers to support their position.