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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Halo 3 runs at 640p native XD

fazz said:
TheBigFatJ said:

Further, higher resolution does not imply 'lower draw distance' or 'fewer polygons'.


Actually, it does.

Did anyone bother on checking the link that GranTurismo posted? Those screens are native 1920x1080.


Then the converse is true as well -- lower resolution implies longer draw distances. Ego, Wii games have the longest draw distance of this generation.

Do you see the problem with the logic here? Rendering engines aren't that simple. If you're not running into a bottleneck, you don't have to make a tradeoff. Chances are, the bottleneck they ran into here was with the framebuffer so it is very unlikely that they were trading resolution for draw distances.

As you no doubt know (since it's common knowledge), the 360 has a built in hardware scaler and scales the rendered resolution to targets as selected by the user.  Two of those targets are 1920x1080.  It says little about the native resolution of the game and I think the beyond forums have pretty solid evidence as to the resolution being rendered.



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TheBigFatJ said:
fazz said:
TheBigFatJ said:

Further, higher resolution does not imply 'lower draw distance' or 'fewer polygons'.


Actually, it does.

Did anyone bother on checking the link that GranTurismo posted? Those screens are native 1920x1080.


Then the converse is true as well -- lower resolution implies longer draw distances. Ego, Wii games have the longest draw distance of this generation.

Do you see the problem with the logic here? Rendering engines aren't that simple. If you're not running into a bottleneck, you don't have to make a tradeoff. Chances are, the bottleneck they ran into here was with the framebuffer so it is very unlikely that they were trading resolution for draw distances.

As you no doubt know (since it's common knowledge), the 360 has a built in hardware scaler and scales the rendered resolution to targets as selected by the user. Two of those targets are 1920x1080. It says little about the native resolution of the game and I think the beyond forums have pretty solid evidence as to the resolution being rendered.


 Is not a fair comparison and you know that...



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FJ-Warez said:
TheBigFatJ said:
fazz said:
TheBigFatJ said:

Further, higher resolution does not imply 'lower draw distance' or 'fewer polygons'.


Actually, it does.

Did anyone bother on checking the link that GranTurismo posted? Those screens are native 1920x1080.


Then the converse is true as well -- lower resolution implies longer draw distances. Ego, Wii games have the longest draw distance of this generation.

Do you see the problem with the logic here? Rendering engines aren't that simple. If you're not running into a bottleneck, you don't have to make a tradeoff. Chances are, the bottleneck they ran into here was with the framebuffer so it is very unlikely that they were trading resolution for draw distances.

As you no doubt know (since it's common knowledge), the 360 has a built in hardware scaler and scales the rendered resolution to targets as selected by the user. Two of those targets are 1920x1080. It says little about the native resolution of the game and I think the beyond forums have pretty solid evidence as to the resolution being rendered.


Is not a fair comparison and you know that...


Of course I know that. I'm making a point by showing a fallacy. If we can say 'higher resolution implies lower draw distances' then we can also say 'lower resolution implies higher draw distances' by logic. This is clearly not true, it's not true across consoles, but even more relevantly it's not true across the 360. Of course, it may be part of a tradeoff (as I've stated several times before), but, then again, it may not. You may be decreasing or increasing the resolution irrespective to draw distance and you may or may not even be limited by fillrate. Your draw distance could be restricted by your CPU time available, for example.

Higher resolution does not imply lower draw distances. It doesn't. While you may be able to tradeoff draw distances and resolution in some situations, it does not apply to all situations and that is exactly my point.

And my point is that this particular situation is much more likely due to framebuffer size limitations than fillrate.



TheBigFatJ said:
fazz said:
TheBigFatJ said:

Further, higher resolution does not imply 'lower draw distance' or 'fewer polygons'.


Actually, it does.

Did anyone bother on checking the link that GranTurismo posted? Those screens are native 1920x1080.


Then the converse is true as well -- lower resolution implies longer draw distances. Ego, Wii games have the longest draw distance of this generation.

Do you see the problem with the logic here? Rendering engines aren't that simple. If you're not running into a bottleneck, you don't have to make a tradeoff. Chances are, the bottleneck they ran into here was with the framebuffer so it is very unlikely that they were trading resolution for draw distances.

As you no doubt know (since it's common knowledge), the 360 has a built in hardware scaler and scales the rendered resolution to targets as selected by the user. Two of those targets are 1920x1080. It says little about the native resolution of the game and I think the beyond forums have pretty solid evidence as to the resolution being rendered.


 You're twisting words. The comment is about lower resolution on the same system. Learn how a framebuffer works. It has to manage the fouth wall of the game. More graphics can use it up. Yet esolution can also use it up, since some of the tasks of the frame buffer require watching every pixel on screen at all times.* Ergo, more resolution means more pixels to watch, and more of the framebuffer is eaten up. Less resolution means there is more room in the framebuffer to deal with a greater amount of graphics.

 

 *The most well known of these tasks if anti-aliasing, but there is also one that sees what textures are on screen, and what isn't visible is not fully rendered, which saves bandwidth. This is expecially important in a game with a free camera, which any FPS has by defintion (or else it would be a rail shooter).



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Sony and Nintendo have always paraded their consoles HD capability, its a pity to see that MS's killer app runs at 640P.



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akuma587 said:
sieanr said:
akuma587 said:
I am interested to know why this problem exists, whether it has something to do with the DVD limitations or with the graphical capabilities of the 360 itself.

I really hope you dont think the size of the storage medium impacts what resoultion the game runs at.



You can run anything at a higher resolution, but that doesn't mean it will look better. Without enough storage space, you can run into problems with storing enough texture information so that the higher resolution actually makes a difference.

So to answer your point, It doesn't affect what resolution it runs at, but it does affect which resolution they target the game to run at. This is why Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's look better running at 1080p than a DVD upscaled to 1080p.


No no no no.  You could have a 10x10 pixel texture wrapped around a 3d object and that object can still be rendered at whatever resolution you'd like.  Texture size has nothing to do with the rendered resolution.  The amount of textures and the size of the textures (also read as quality of the texture) could be affect by the space on the medium.  Also, the performance could be affected if the amount and speed of onboard memory is insuffecient for the amount and size of textures being used.  But the size of the medium has absolutely nothing to do with the resolution of 3d games.

DVD upscaling on the other hand is different story.  There you are working with a flat 2d image that already has a prerendered resolution.  Each frame is a prerendered picture (which is what an individual texture in a 3d game is).

What sieanr said about the lighting engine makes the most sense so far.



Fonzerelli said:
Sony and Nintendo have always paraded their consoles HD capability, its a pity to see that MS's killer app runs at 640P.

I'm assuming this is meant to read "Sony and Microsoft".  If someone had to get a screen grab and manually count pixels, than it is a moot point.  Most people thought the graphics of the campaign were above par.  And until now, no one noticed.  Does it matter on paper?  Yes.  Does it matter in application?  Obviously not.



MikeB said:
Some XBox 360 games which I heard aren't really HD (just lower res rendering upscaling towards HD, like for instance PS2 games or DVDs being played on the PS3):

Tony Hawk's Project 8 1040x584
PGR 3 and Tomb Raider 1024x600
Perfect Dark (like Halo 3, 193,280 pixels less than HD) 1138x640

Anyhow many people won't notice as many (70%) XBox 360 owners in the US (Halo 3's main market) according to NPD research are unaware of high definition graphics.

Give me a break

Project 8 runs at lower reoultions on the 360 and PS3.  But hey, what about PS3 titles not running in HD? How about COD3?

Whereas 50% of PS3 owners know about the machines HD capability, thats probabaly because its install base is less than half the 360. However, 40% of PS3 owners are aware it plays Bluray despite the fact that 50% of PS3 users have played a Bluray film - hows that for a WTF 


Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

davygee said:
Halo 3 could be a brilliant game...but if true that it runs at 640p then it's not a Next Gen HD game for me.
I reckon Bungie have done this so that they can get more graphical content into the games...ie. more polys, textures and models.
I reckon PS3 developers should do the same as well. They are trying to make games 1080p, when most people that even have an HD set can't view above 720p. Maybe it would be a good idea for them all to develop all their games for the next few years at 720p, this would allow them more processor time to have more polys, textures and models and physics as well.

I reckon that caring wether or not a game is "Next Gen HD" means you really don't care about the game itself. 



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

Microsoft's system is buggy and the the graphics and HD of many games are questionable.

Sony's system is too expensive, unapealing and developers can't seem to develop for it properly.

Maybe HD wasn't the best choice for this generation since no one really seems to know how to do it right.