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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Could the Wii use HD-VMD?

OK, this HD-VMD is pretty interesting...

First off, there's this:

"The VMD platform is meant for 1920X1080i/p High Definition up to 40 Mbps bit rate playback using its 20 GB-40 GB Red Laser optical discs - the players & burners stand alone and computer embedded, inherently backward compatible with DVD and CD."

It maintains complete backwards compatibility with existing DVDs and CDs. Sure, HD-DVD and Blu-ray accomplish the same, but there's more:

"Presently, all optical laser devices such as DVD operate on red laser technology, have a frequency or wavelength of 650Nm (nanometres), and deliver Standard Definition (SD) quality pictures. New technology has since emerged using blue laser, an inferior wavelength or frequency of 405Nm that can store more information .The downside of this technology is that manufacturing production lines of drives and discs will have to be dismantled and changed entirely, naturally incurring significant costs to the producers, which in turn will trickle to the consumer.
 
Without making a drastic shift from Red laser technology, researchers at NME, have found a means of exploiting the unused or wasted space between the existing layers of a standard DVD through its unique multilayer technology. This brilliantly innovative technology is evident in Versatile Multilayer Discs or VMD, starting with a minimum storage capacity of 20GB today and expandable further in the future."

Therefore, HD-VMD utilizes the same red lasers as existing DVD technology. Now, regarding the actual storage capacity:

"In order to play a full length motion picture in HD, the minimum storage requirement lies around 20 GB, whereas the latest DVD9 can only contain 8.5 GB.

VMD is precisely the same size and thickness as DVD. While DVD technology utilizes two layers of a disc, VMD technology has conceived multi-layering, whereby the storage capacity is dramatically increased. Each additional layer adds approximately up to 5 GB of memory over a standard DVD disc. VMD provides the ability to place up to 20 layers on a single disc with no quality loss in the content stored. This means capacity to record 100 GB or more."

This is the part that is a bit nebulous: Is current DVD laser technology designed to "understand" multiple layers per disc? If yes, then a firmware update will work. Otherwise, no dice.

But! I then find this nugget:

"Versatile: Inherent backward compatibility with all the existing and previous Disc formats. VMD Drives will be able to read other standard formats including CD and DVD.

Adaptable: VMD multilayer technology does not strictly function with red laser only, but can easily be applied to blue laser as well once the Blue laser technology is flawless. VMD would therefore attain even larger storage capacities easily outperforming all competition by offering increased storage whichever base it uses."

So... a-ha! It seems like this technology does not only apply to red lasers, but blue ones as well! This really gives me the impression that the technology can be applied to all existing formats. Perhaps it's not so much the laser, but the media in which the content is being stored. In other words, be it blue or red laser, as long as you use VMD discs when recording you should be able to attain significant gains in storage.

Then I did a bit more searching, and indeed it seems like HD-VMD technology revolves around the disc, not the laser:

"VMD - Disc

Versatile Multilayer Disc (VMD) is an optical storage device in the traditional DVD format, except that it can hold about 10 times the quantity of a standard DVD, or roughly 5 times the quantity of a DVD9. This is achieved quite simply through a multilayer technology that exploits the unused or wasted space, as we like to call it, within the disc itself.

The usual CD/DVD technology does not allow manufacturing disks with more than two layers (from one side). In contrast VMD technology allows building disks (and compatible players) with 5, 10 up to a maximum of 20 layers. VMD is a multi-layered semi reflective disc. Its format, dimension, weight, coding, technological and operational standards, as well as the corresponding parameters of the drives/players (including reading rate and power consumption) meet the regular standards of CD, DVD, minidisk and other existing information carriers."

Conventional DVD players would not be able to fully take advantage of this technology. Why? Well, apart from lacking any means of updating firmware, DVD players are simply not designed to process 4x the bandwidth. Going from 480p to 1080p requires substantial bandwidth gains, and most DVD players are ill-equipped to handle so much information. However, for a console, firmware updates are a piece of cake - all three consoles from this generation have had firmware updates introduced at one point or another.
 
It really seems like the technology can be applied to any existing player via firmware update. Of course, this does not mean Nintendo are the only beneficiaries for HD-VMD application - the Xbox 360 stands to benefit just as well (even the PS3 could benefit with Blu-Ray HD-VMDs). Nintendo's Wii would need to be able to output at HD resolutions - something that is technically quite possible but without the go-ahead from Nintendo HQ the only benefit of HD-VMD would be the additional storage - but that is another story.
 
Anyway, my 2 cents... 


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@your mother: Yes, I agree - and come to the same conclusions. The tech revolves around a clever way of manufacturing multi-layered discs more than anything else.

If it truly does only require a firmware update, that's pretty amazing stuff. Wonder if the detector/read heads need to be upgraded or have more accuracy/data processing ability in them (to handle more layers at once)?

Going to be real interesting to see where this goes. 



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shams said:
jlauro said:
shams said:
Guys, the Wii *can't* output at 720p/1080i - it would *never* be a HD (VMD) video player, because the video output circuitry (RAMDAC, frame buffer, etc...) are not designed for it.


http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200611/N06.1120.1725.47900.htm

 

We contacted a Nintendo rep to clarify, and while they said that Nintendo is absolutely not currently announcing any plans to upgrade the maximum resolution from 480p, it shouldn't be impossible in theory.

The rep noted that Microsoft was able to patch the Xbox 360 to support 1080p.

 

Based on everything I have seen, wii should be able to handle 720p. The problem is... it would have to trade off something, such as amount of detail it can have and still be at a decent frame rate. Something like a web browser where there isn't a lot of animation should be very possible at 720p with the wii.

Well, I'm not 100% privy to the technical/hardware specs - so they would definitely know more than me.

But from my knowledge it would need two things:

i) Enough VRAM to produce a minimum of 2 frame buffers at full 720p resolution. The Wii has a 3MB(?) texture/frame buffer cache. 1280x720 pixels = 920k (at 8bits). Even at 16bit colour (1.8MB / frame), with no z-buffer - the Wii doesn't have enough VRAM for two full frames. Can you do it with a single surface? Maybe - but things could get real ugly. Not sure if its possible. I doubt its possible to use main memory for the off-screen buffer, or the current frame buffer.

(by comparison, 480p --> 720x480 pixels --> 337k at 8bits. Plenty of space on the Wii for full 24bit colour + 8bit zbuffer, for front/backbuffers).

ii) A fast enough RAMDAC to scan the frame buffer, and turn that into a 720p compatible video signal. This may be possible - no idea really. But if Ninty never wanted to support 720p on the console, I'm not sure if they would bother to up the clock rate or use a more expensive component (potentially more manufacturing cost?) for something that wouldn't be used.

...

The 360 issue is a different one. It has heaps of VRAM - easily enough for 1080p - and a RAMDAC that is fast enough to handle the conversion.

 


 The PS2 had 4MB of Vram (devs have commented that it's more like 1/8th that size due to the fact that you can't use compression on the PS2's Vram for textures compared to the Cube and Wii's Vram which allows compression).  The original Xbox had no Vram, it used main memory to supply all video data.  

Both the PS2 and Xbox had 720p and 1080i games.  So why can't the Wii do it?  Technically if the PS2 or Xbox could do it... the Wii can easily do it.  The Wii also has a much larger pipe to main memory then the Xbox had.  Which should allow for some pretty fast streams, fast enough to playback video in HD.  The biggest limitation I see is the 6x DVD reader,  I don't know if 6x is fast enough....



Prepare for termination! It is the only logical thing to do, for I am only loyal to Megatron.

shams said:
Guys, the Wii *can't* output at 720p/1080i

 Ehhh... no, technically it can. But it's locked. And don't forget it has 64MB of VRAM (aside from the embedded, which is texture, not framebuffer). Even the PS2 could do 1080i.

Is locked for obvious reasons: core clock may not be high enough to maintain detail while keeping framerate at higher resolutions. If Nintendo wanted to, they could unlock 720p or even 1080p.

About the HD-VMD , it would be uber cool, I don't want to buy another player for HD content (aside from my good trusty PC) :)



shams said:

@your mother: Yes, I agree - and come to the same conclusions. The tech revolves around a clever way of manufacturing multi-layered discs more than anything else.

If it truly does only require a firmware update, that's pretty amazing stuff. Wonder if the detector/read heads need to be upgraded or have more accuracy/data processing ability in them (to handle more layers at once)?

Going to be real interesting to see where this goes.


 Blu Ray and HD DVD can already support crazy amounts of layers on their discs... I don't see this as being something either format could use...  The PS3 would see no benefit in having this option.  Currently a 20GB Blu Ray disc would take 37+ minutes to read from start to finish on the PS3. The more layers you have, the longer it would take to load your data.  

The Wii on the other hand can go through 4.7GB in about 9+ minutes.  Having 4 layers instead of 2 would put the Wii at around 40+ minutes to read the entire disc from beginning to end.  Anyway, it's all theoretical I guess...  unless HD VMD is serious about getting Nintendo on board... we won't see anything of this tech for games.  

If anyone's curious how long it would take the 360 to read 4 layers from beginning to end... it would take aprox 20+ minutes.  Not bad...  Makes more sense to get MS on board... but MS definately won't jump on board as it's not in their best interest to support anything other then HD DVD and DVD at the moment. 



Prepare for termination! It is the only logical thing to do, for I am only loyal to Megatron.

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So it looks like the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray generation of disc are going to get cut short or worse a new format war as this technology and HVD are poised to to come out in the next year or so. (Oops HVD isn't suppose to slated to come out to consumers until 2010)

Here's a question which company is in charge of this format because I have just been rereading the information on HVD and it sound simular. Uses red laser, but instead of using pits like normal disks do they use the entire layer to store the information so more of the disc can be used. And the transfer rate and size of one layer is far beyond what Blu-Ray can do. The only difference is HVD needs a special disc were as this doesn't, so it may be one of the companies usin the reading system and applying it to normal disc (or they are using a hybrid disc and since it uses the same tech)

1Gb/sec 300GB/layer

 http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hvd.htm (Link to the front of the article)

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hvd5.htm (Link to a chart on how the different techs compair)



Wii doesn't use normal DVDs for it's games. They're custom ones.



BlkPaladin said:

So it looks like the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray generation of disc are going to get cut short or worse a new format war as this technology and HVD are poised to to come out in the next year or so. (Oops HVD isn't suppose to slated to come out to consumers until 2010)

Here's a question which company is in charge of this format because I have just been rereading the information on HVD and it sound simular. Uses red laser, but instead of using pits like normal disks do they use the entire layer to store the information so more of the disc can be used. And the transfer rate and size of one layer is far beyond what Blu-Ray can do. The only difference is HVD needs a special disc were as this doesn't, so it may be one of the companies usin the reading system and applying it to normal disc (or they are using a hybrid disc and since it uses the same tech)

1Gb/sec 300GB/layer

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hvd.htm (Link to the front of the article)

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hvd5.htm (Link to a chart on how the different techs compair)


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein-coated_disc

And no sooner will they be out then we'll get PCD's  50TB