Just curious but what would you guys think of Spies having 6-10 sappers as ammo? I have been thinking about this and imo it would balance the chain sapping but should leave them well in tact for taking out lone sentries or just causing havoc in general.

I just don't think a single spy should be able to run by and sap 20 different things without having to grab some ammo. I know when the other team goes engineer heavy I basically just wreck havoc by waiting for a heavy to pop around the corner before I use the distraction to lay the smack down. I would say I can usually get 60-80% of structures down by doing that.

Just a thought.

I don't like giving ammo to the electro sapper, I don't think it's overpowered at all. As soon as you sap something, the Engineer who owns it knows your exact position. If he's nearby, which he should be, he can immediately identify you and attempt to bludgeon you or fill you with holes and then repair his equipment. If there are multiple engineers around, it's even easier to thwart your attempts at sabotage.

If you're having really good success against Engineer-heavy teams as a Spy, either they're not very good at rooting out Spies, or they need a Pyro.  :)

I don't see why you have a problem then. If you think the spies will be spotted and taken care of so quickly then ammo won't even be an issue. I guess I don't get your position.

Really though, even if an engineer is right on top of his stuff you can sap without them spotting you. It just takes a bit of awareness of the situation. For starters doing it when nothing is going on is just asking for death. As is doing it in plain site of folks, a little patience can go a long way to causing max damage.

Something a lot of spies don't seem to know is that sapped structures don't work. So its very effective to sap a dispenser and when the engineer goes to repair it sap the sentry and backstab the guy. Then cloak, re-disguise, and finish the sapping job.

I honestly have very little time on the spy and yet usually I'm very effective when I switch over to play the class. I shutter to think what a dedicated spy can do.

PS - I haven't decided if the morons who backstab you in the midst of a cluster of you, your teammates, and your team's sentries are just downright amusing or completely annoying, but they do seem to home in on me quite often =P

PPS - Anyone have the defend Gravel Pit without giving up a capture achievement? That one seems like a real pain in the ass.

Yeah that's something Spies seem to do a lot, is just go behind the offense and kill people. It's effective though, sometimes they can get several kills in a row and destroy the offensive push. Especially when you backstab a Heavy with a Medic in tow -- even if you only manage to take out the Heavy, you've stopped him from wreaking havoc in your base for the length of time it takes him to walk there (which is a while).

The reason I don't think the sapper needs to have limited ammo is because I don't think it's too powerful. Don't fix what ain't broken. If you allow a Spy to run wild in your base, he should be able to sap all your shit.

A smart Engineer will attack the spy who sapped his dispenser before repairing his dispenser. He knows that the only thing the Spy can do to defend himself is either run away or fight back. If he fights back, the sentry gun takes him out and you can go repair the dispenser; if he runs away, you can repair the dispenser while alerting your team to his presence.

Yeah, I've got the achievements for defending all those maps without losing a single capture point. Doesn't happen often...we pulled off the very hard Dustbowl map last night though. It took a LOT of engineers to do it, really.

And with Gravel Pit, it just takes 2 or 3 engineers and 1 or 2 combat classes at B, and the rest defending A...I've defended without losing a capture point a few times now. But if the other team is organized and gets an Uber whatever at B, we lose at least one point. But then we're already set up at A, and we usually win anyway.

I rarely see Spies only go for the Dispenser first, and then while I'm repairing that, go for my Sentry, and then kill me...that's pretty much never happened to me.

My dispenser and sentry are almost always right next to each other...so when I get sapped by a Spy, it's pretty much simultaneous. I'm constantly hitting my sentry with a wrench because it's getting shot at...so when a Spy comes and saps my stuff, I just keep repairing my sentry.

I find that I'd rather lose my dispenser for the sake of my sentry. I fix my sentry, and I'm constantly moving, so I very, very rarely get backstabbed, and once my sentry is fixed, I shotgun the Spy. Then I'm usually good to rebuild the dispenser. If the Spy tries to stab me, he'll just get shot by my sentry.

That way, I stay alive, and my sentry is still up. Staying alive as an Engineer is more important than keeping the dispenser up, of course, because I can always rebuild.

Yeah, dispensers are far easier to rebuild than a level 3 sentry. A dispenser costs 100 metal and builds in about 10 seconds. A level 3 sentry costs 530 metal and takes a minute of running back and forth between your sentry and an ammo supply.

@Entroper,

I think you missed the part about there being sentries too. The situation I am referring to is not when I'm on offense but rather on defense. There are some really dumb spies out there it seems who will drop cloak/disguise in front of a sentry just to stab someone. In any case, I personally prefer to go for the medic first as a spy, I don't think a lone heavy is all that hard to kill for a defense, but a medic + is very effective. Just a preference thing ultimately, so as long as someone dies its helpful.

On the ammo thing, I don't think the sapper is too powerful either. I think the infinite ammo plus instant re-use is a bit much when you consider a situation where there are tons of engineers in one small spot which happens quite often on certain maps. You seem to be pointing to this one on one scenario again but I want to make it clear that I think one on one the spy should be able to cause havoc. And like I said if the spies die easily in your games it wouldn't really change anything. I just don't think a single spy should be able to sap 20 buildings in 3 or 4 seconds like he can right now.

Ultimately I doubt Valve will modify it but I think it would bring more balance to the large scale games like 16v16. And the issue will get worse as we see 32v32 maps and more etc... (if we see them that is)...Basically to me this is a way to balance the higher player density situations without significantly changing the lower player density games. Which is why the re-use time isn't something I would mess with.

@Ben,

How many players are on the server when you got that achievement? It seems damn near impossible on the 32 man servers so I may have to play some smaller games.

As for the spy talk, if the engineer can see the spy as he saps thats a mistake on the spy's part. I usually look for stuff without an engineer right on top of it. But in the situations where the sentry I need to remove has the engineer right there I will sap both and move around a corner, if he follows I stab or cloak depending on if his friends are near. If he doesn't follow I duck out and re-sap ASAP. The idea as a spy is to think about what options your prey has when you perform an action and know how you will handle each response before you move in. Otherwise you are likely to panic and fail miserably, which seems to be the common way people play a spy.

I actually think spies are overplayed on many servers, a lot of people don't understand that constant barrages from spies just keeps the other team alert and ready for you when you really need to get a spy in there for the big offensive push.

PS - What do you guys think about the Pyros now? A lot of people say they are over powered but I'm not convinced. I think the flame animation needs to be extended to the full range that they are actually hitting but otherwise I don't see much problem with it.

Are you guys still playing? I'm about to buy the game :)... I gave up on my journey (@eBay) for a new modelling processor... I just can't buy auctions :(

I play usually 2 or 3 nights a week depending on whats going on.