I don't think there is a lack of that. That helps cultivate all the SEGA love that's going around the Nintendo fan-community, and gratitude towards a good number of developers out there.

I think there is. the small hardcore nintendo fanbase on vgc may buy outside nintendo but if you look at the big picture, the differences are unreal and can't be attributed simply to : nintendo's studios were sent down from heaven. That's not enough to explain the difference.

@noname2200

On the other hand, I think that you misread my post. Please note that I always talked about art or _craft_. They are not the same: when I think of craftsmanship I think of experience, love, taste being used into making a great _product_, though not necessarily trying to bring down new walls.

Some games are "artsy", other are as much as good and are great works of craft.

Nintendo's own first party games are such works of craft. Blizzard's games are such works of craft: polished and fun, though usually derivative. GTA is a work of craft.

Shadow of the Colossus, ICO, Killer 7, Portal are pieces of art... and it not only (or even at all) because of their graphics, but because of the way they try to convey new experiences, even indirectly.

My point was that sometimes you need the means to express your art or craft. Stating that the input method is everything and every other aspect of technology comes second is myopic: the greatest games of all times did not have great graphics, but they also were controlled without a wiimote.

Plus you seem to have a double standard when it comes to what makes a quality game. The customers' wallets have spoken: a lot of people like Wii Sport and Wii Fit and Mario Kart Wii and that is great, I love my Wii Tennis with friends. But do you think that in ten years you will look back longingly and say "aah, Mario Kart Wii was one of the best games ever"?

What we are witnessing is a market reboot coupled with a market crash. These two things have happened, are happening, or are going to happen in more or less every industry ever. They're opposite ends of the universal market trend.

When a market gets rebooted, at least one participant in the market (incumbent or newcomer) takes a step back and asks what can truly be done to bring the market's appeal to a larger audience than it currently caters to. The end result is usually a Blue Ocean product, and inevitably disruptive.

When a market crashes, it is almost always due to over-focusing on a single market demographic over all others. Part of the universal market trend is refinement of concept to better appeal to the customer, which of course leads to a narrowing down of who will take an interest in what the market has to offer. When a market crashes, even its most loyal supporters start abandoning it, to the point that the expense of catering to what's left exceeds the profit of doing so.

That said, it's rare to see two markets active at once in the same general domain, one crashing and one starting up. As Rol named them, they are "next generation" and "new generation". As they are non-abstractly, they are the market which has focused on the values of better visuals and more cinematic gameplay and the market which has focused on better controls and more immersive gameplay.

To all of you who think that the "next generation" embodied by the 360 and PS3 has always been about better graphics and more cinematic gameplay, take a look back at the NES versus the PCs of the same era, and see if you still hold that opinion afterwards...

 If the devs who were losing money on ps360 moved to wii, there's a high chance that they'll lose money as well because they'll probably make a game you won't buy probably because it sucks. i think most are trying to find a common ground to create a game where both themselves and the consumers want. there's a reason some ps360 games have days you can play online with the developers. This makes it obvious that the devs themselves love playing the game.

As for the xbox one, the xbox architecture makes for a good excuse even with a 15% marketshare. So why did sega release Panzer Dragoon exclusive to xbox? Why did Tecmo's Team Ninja decide to become xbox exclusive? Didn't Itagaki say he liked the platform or something along those lines. Keep in mind that these are Japanese devs where it was even surprising that they knew the xbox existed considering it's performance in their country.

You say wii owners have bought the "good" 3rd party games however many of the so called good games are languishing in mediocre sales whereas many so-called"shovlware" have done well. I remnember capcom complaining about sales on the wii as well. This idea is not exclusive to HD consoles. To understand the disparity I'm talking about, make a chart of th wii's best selling games, the difference in sales is too great to be attributed to "3rd partys suck", "nintendo makes the best games" and the other terms people throw around. In reality, most wii owners simply buy only nintendo's games and my household is no different. With the exception of Trauma Center, all the wii games my 10 year old brother has "gotten" are from nintendo and he's looking forward to the next mario, zelda, pokemon, etc like most wii owners not the next 3rd party game on the horizon and if I'm not mistaken Benga made a thread showing that 3rd party wii exclusives for 2009 are actually more than the PS360 combined yet most wii owners are blind to these. Your complaints make it obvious that even you probably didn't even realize this.

As for the  term "nintendo's games sell on nintendo's consoles", I think there's a lot of truth in that statement although I don't know why that is. For camparison, I think a game like Mario 64 would probably have sold much less on PS1 than N64 and it would feel more like equal ground with other third party games on a different console not a constant breakaway hit as it is on ninty's systems. This is just a feeling of mine though so take it with a grain of salt.

The ™ symbol is specifically for trademarks not yet registered, and used by people and companies to protect things until they become registered trademarks ®. Registering a trade mark is actually not mandatory, and owners of "common law" trademarks can also take legal action against people abusing their trademarked property to a lesser extent.

@ Rol - So I guess we can trust you, at least untill you change your avatar back. =P

Yes and no. I think you have narrowed your vision somewhat, because while the Wii certainly is the bestselling console this generation, both PS3 and Xbox 360 are moving software. I just checked, and the 360 currently has 64 games that have sold at least a million copies, and the Wii has 41. The 360 also has a much smaller userbase than the Wii, so saying developers are 'missing the mark' with good graphics, is hard to prove.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that gameplay is more important than graphics, but the market for people buying 'next-gen' games over 'new-gen' is not insignificant, and until it starts evaporating, or the Wii proves a greater market, developers are going to make their games for the "proven" platforms.

But to prove both our points, I will bring up Left 4 Dead. Running on the Source engine, it is hardly a graphical behemoth, but it still requires the processing power and memory of a HD console (or PC of course) to run as it designed to. This should be easily provable by referring to Dead Rising, a game that hardly pushed the graphics of the 360 when it came out, but it proved that graphics are not everything with its port to the Wii.

I have no idea if they will be remembered, but I do know, that while some people consider some games classic for their gameplay, they certainly age. Now, I have not played Super Mario Galaxy (I want to though), but I am very confident, that if you ask someone what game they like better, between Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario 64, the few people who will answer SM64 are probably nostalgic about it, or they would have said SMG.

What SM64 did back well then, has been done better since. Classics that are remembered because of their gameplay have good memories attached to them, but if you sit down and play SM64, it will probably feel dated, because Nintendo has since put out new, better Mario games.

But a classic that is remembered for something else, like its story will still hold up storywise in many years to come, because it is much more unique than gameplay. I would like to play MGS for example, so I can be told the story, and at the same time get more out of MGS4, but it has nothing to do with gameplay.

And my example with God of War, was meant to illustrate that games can be remembered for other things than gameplay alone. And I do count puzzles as gameplay, but the game always gave you that feeling that the puzzle was a daunting task.

And to answer your question, "What is it about being on an HD console that makes it so memorable?", I'll say this.

When you think of playing MK Wii for example, you think of the fun you have with it, right? It's exactly the same with the games you like on HD consoles, but they open up the experience to another level. It is of course a different question whether developers know how to use that extra power for the better of their game, but it certainly happens.

As an example, I will use Killzone 2 (in case you weren't already sick of hearing about it, but hear me out). The power of the PS3 contains is used very well, and for the better of the game. The gameplay is really good, but it is combined with exceptional graphics and sound and creates a sense of immersion few games reach these days. You are never in doubt that you are on a foreign planet, fighting a war. It never feels like you are playing a game, where the enemies' only objective is to eliminate you, but you are fighting a war like war has never been presented in a game before. Killzone 2 is like nothing that has come before it, and while gameplay is the biggest factor to the succes of the game, the fact that the developers had the means to take it an extra mile with graphics and sound, means the game is outstanding.

If you want to talk Wii vs. PS360 specifically, then it of course comes down to game selection, and once there are more games I am interested in on the Wii, I will get one, but right now, it is not the case, and I am certain a lot of HD console owners feel the same about the Wii's selection of games.

Finally, I feel sad that you haven't played Flower. It really is a gem of a game, one of the most unique and astounding games to have been around in a long time.

All that advertising would cost more than the development costs lol

I think they are probably waiting to see if it gets some positive word of mouth and save some money. I mean, the game was well known on videogames sites, so core gamers should know about it..... right?

Theres nothing to indicate that a market crash is happening, has happened, or is about to happen. However there is a change in market conditions happening and with or without the Wii it was always going to happen. The Wii merely introduced a new dynamic into what were always going to be changing conditions. With the market expanding beyond a core of baseline enthusiasts who are wholey more tolerant than a wider variety of mass market consumers to mediocre service delivery. There is no longer a place for developers, publishers and console manufacturers who fail to understand and meet the expectations of the market.

Yes, you know why? because they probably won't put any "love" into making the games if they were forced to. I highly doubt a wii version of cod4 by IW would've been any good.

Thats fair that you believe it was all moneyhat. However, I find it strange that M$ would court Itagaki out of the blue. What did he do before ninja gaiden to make him deserving of this? Most of M$ obvious moneyhats this gen have been to accomplished devs and franchises.

You used the term "games fail to meet expectations on all systems". We finally have some common ground.

Thats fine that ninty's games sell a lot. It's the disparity I question. It ridiculously high. i've never seen that kind of phenomenon on any non-ninty console. like I said, the cop-out answer is always, "they're too good" but this is simply false. They may be good but not that much better than everyone else. maybe there's something ninty's games have even if I personally can't see it but that thing is also making people ignore other offerings which is leaving 3rd parties with no choice but to abandon their platform. Since you guys stick to ninty's games instead of actually trying others out, whats the point of a 3rd party effort? Call it "disruption" but with the wii, I feel like nintendo designed a platform only they could profit from and they're the only ones profiting from it.

That's fair enough. However,  clogging all "3rd parties" together and judging them as a whole is probably the same reason they'll never make any progress with the wii. Some do make an effort but most wii owners clog them up with the "Imagine series" group anyway.

...because they designed the system and planned ahead? Magic doesn't exist. Notice how only sony's first/second party games don't have installs on ps3? It's a pretty similar concept.