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Forums - General - Venezuela and its next step to a dictatorship

steven787 on 16 February 2009
FaRmLaNd said:
Yep. And remember democracy quite literally means the tyranny of the majority. So if a person controls all the media etc, he can easily get the popular vote making it a de-facto dictatorship.


"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." - Thomas Jefferson

"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner." - James Bouvard

Screw it... I'll stick with Ben Franklin...

"Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards; there it enters the roots of the vines, to be changed into wine; a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy."



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

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Gh0st4lifE on 17 February 2009

Except Chavez doesn't control the media nor does his democracy go against the rights of the minority.



Welcome to reality : Hugo Chavez is a popular president because people actually like him. He is populist though, and doesn't care much about protocoles. But he still is a decent President, and litteraly outshine Venezuela's traditionnal competitors.



History tends to stick with the facts.



God i hate fanboys, almost as much as they hate facts

 

“If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea” Antoine de St-Exupery

  +2Q  /  -2N  (to be read in french)

lightbleeder on 17 February 2009
Gh0st4lifE said:
Except Chavez doesn't control the media nor does his democracy go against the rights of the minority.



Welcome to reality : Hugo Chavez is a popular president because people actually like him. He is populist though, and doesn't care much about protocoles. But he still is a decent President, and litteraly outshine Venezuela's traditionnal competitors.



History tends to stick with the facts.

 

In Caracas we have 11 over the air TV channels, of those, 6 are owned by the government and always saying good stuff about Chavez and saying bad stuff of people who oppose him. Of the privately owned TV stations 1 is a sport channel, the other 4 are your regular chanels with varied programs like news and sitcoms, of those 4 only one mantains a lot of opposition to Chavez (the other three were in danger of losing their license to function if they didn't comply to Chavez demands). That's media control for me, but only for TV stations.

Printed media is where Chavez really loses the media dominance, but that's because that's a media that needs to sell to exist, and since government newspapers don't sell well much of them are given for free. Privately owned printed newspapers are much higher in quality so they sell a lot more.

Radio doesn't really count for me, there private and public radio stations but the great majority are not politically related to chavez or people who oppose him.

Chavez is not a decent president, he's a guy who likes giving our oil money to other countries while a lot of us live in misery, what he should be doing is investing that money in Venezuela so when the oil is no longer needed whe have other stuff to hold on to. All he does for venezuelan people is give them a little while they deserve a lot more, and after 10 years of government cime rates are going up every year. People don't want to work because Chavez gives them a little wage if they participate in the events that show support to him, we import 70% of the food we eat and we don't have plans to solve those problems. Also if I want to visit another country I have to pay a huge exchange rate because the official exchange rate can only be used by government officials, and regular citizens can only use 2500$ for traveling outside the country.

The fact that you like Chavez is fine by me, but if you tell me that a president should stay as many times as the population wants then my friend I'd tell you to study a little bit of history. Chavez can be seen as a democrat, that's just because there's a 45% of the population that doesn't support him and pressure his government, he wants to be president until he dies, and with a person like that you can never know if he could take control of the electoral institution of Venezuela and arrange the elections in his favor...



hunter_alien on 17 February 2009

Nah... Il be arrogant as most US posters when they get a bad news about their allies and say: who the hell cares? They bought weapons from Russia for 4 billion $... so they are OK in my eyes :P



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

im_sneaky on 17 February 2009
MrBubbles said:

CARACAS, Venezuela – President Hugo Chavez won a referendum to eliminate term limits Sunday and vowed to remain in power for at least another decade to complete his socialist revolution. Opponents accepted defeat but said Chavez is becoming a dictator.

Fireworks exploded in the sky and caravans of supporters celebrated in the streets, waving red flags and honking horns. Thousands of people gathered outside Miraflores Palace, where the former paratroop commander appeared on a balcony to sing the national anthem and address the crowd.

"Those who voted 'yes' today voted for socialism, for revolution," Chavez said. He called the victory — which allows all public officials to run for re-election indefinitely — a mandate to speed his transformation of Venezuela into a socialist state.

"Today we opened wide the gates of the future," he said. "In 2012 there will be presidential elections, and unless God decides otherwise, unless the people decide otherwise, this soldier is already a candidate."

With 94 percent of the vote counted, 54 percent had voted for the constitutional amendment, National Electoral Council chief Tibisay Lucena said. Forty-six percent had voted against it, a trend she called irreversible. She said turnout was 67 percent.

At their campaign headquarters, Chavez opponents hugged one another, and some cried. Several opposition leaders said they wouldn't contest the vote.

"We're democrats. We accept the results," said opposition leader Omar Barboza.

But they said the results were skewed by Chavez's broad use of state resources to get out the vote, through a battery of state-run news media, pressure on 2 million public employees and frequent presidential speeches which all television stations are required to air.

Opponents say Chavez already has far too much power, with the courts, the legislature and the election council all under his influence. Removing the 12-year presidential term limit, they say, makes him unstoppable.

"Effectively this will become a dictatorship," Barboza told The Associated Press. "It's control of all the powers, lack of separation of powers, unscrupulous use of state resources, persecution of adversaries."

Voters on both sides said the referendum was crucial to the future of Venezuela, a deeply polarized country where Chavez has spent a tumultuous decade in power channeling tremendous oil wealth into combating gaping social inequality.

Chavez supporters say their president has given poor Venezuelans cheap food, free education and quality health care, and empowered them with a discourse of class struggle after decades of U.S.-backed governments that favored the rich.

"This victory saved the revolution," said Gonzalo Mosqueda, a 60-year-old shopkeeper, sipping rum from a plastic cup outside the palace. "Without it everything would be at risk — all the social programs, and everything he has done for the poor."

Chavez took office in 1999 and won support for a new constitution the same year that allowed the president to serve two six-year terms, barring him from the 2012 elections. Sunday's vote was his second attempt to change that; voters rejected a broader referendum in December 2007.

Venezuela's leftist allies in Latin America have followed the model. Ecuador pushed through a new constitution in September and Bolivia did so in January. Both loosened rules on presidential re-election. Nicaragua's ruling Sandinistas also plan to propose an amendment that would let Daniel Ortega run for another consecutive term.

 

What MrBubbles Thinks:

Didnt the people already tell him no?  I dont think these results can be trusted.  he didnt have the support last time.  it seems rather rediculous that he just can keep calling for a referendum on the matter until he wins(or rigs it).

 

I live in Quebec, and the seperatist party thinks that if they get into power they can call a third referendum on whether or not Quebec should seperate. they lost the first two, and fewer people want to seperate now than before..but stil...



 

 

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Jackson50 on 17 February 2009
lightbleeder said:In Caracas we have 11 over the air TV channels, of those, 6 are owned by the government and always saying good stuff about Chavez and saying bad stuff of people who oppose him. Of the privately owned TV stations 1 is a sport channel, the other 4 are your regular chanels with varied programs like news and sitcoms, of those 4 only one mantains a lot of opposition to Chavez (the other three were in danger of losing their license to function if they didn't comply to Chavez demands). That's media control for me, but only for TV stations.

Printed media is where Chavez really loses the media dominance, but that's because that's a media that needs to sell to exist, and since government newspapers don't sell well much of them are given for free. Privately owned printed newspapers are much higher in quality so they sell a lot more.

Radio doesn't really count for me, there private and public radio stations but the great majority are not politically related to chavez or people who oppose him.

Yeah, Chavez and his government display too much influence over the radio and television media. The RCTV incident was especially unfortunate. With that being said, print media and the internet still provide a voice for those who wish to dissent. Well, I am fairly certain there are no restrictions on internet access.

 



Signalstar on 17 February 2009

I suddenly got the urge to watch The Last King of Scottland.... be right back.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

lightbleeder on 17 February 2009

As long as I know there are now internet censorship here, I can visit any web page I want but I wouldn't discard any censorship in the future, that's why the opposition have to be organized and don't let stuff like this happen.



Soleron on 17 February 2009
steven787 said:
I hate the guy but he really has developed the perfect 21st century mold that dictators will follow for the next 100 or so years.

1. Instead of Secret Police, keep the streets dangerously filled with thugs. People are afraid to gather in public, or go out at night... but it doesn't cost Chavez anything.

2. Forget trying to better the circumstances of the poor and limiting wealth (like traditional Communists). Just limit wealth.

3. Hold real elections, but dominate with a distasteful amount of publicity and make state employees and the military afraid that they will suffer if you lose.

Putin does it too, but Chavez got it first. Putin was much slower.

This.

Also, 4. Use the country's natural resources to suspend economic reality. Then give out cash to the groups most likely to vote against you at any given time.

That applies to Putin too.

I think China will go this way too, or else have democracy forced upon them by the wealthy.

 



steven787 on 17 February 2009

Thanks Soleron, I forgot #4.

Also, Chavez requires all presidential speeches be carried on TV and Radio, he does these several times per week...



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.