FaRmLaNd said: The problem with most rts games is they're designed for the pc and then ported. Goldeneye and Halo both show that if you take a genre and specifically design it for a console it will do wonders. Thats why halo is somewhat floaty and has loads of vehicles etc etc. It was made for consoles and thats why it plays so well on consoles. The same hopefully can be said for halo wars. Its designed from the ground up for a gamepad, that is the only way that an RTS will be made to work properly on a console. Adapting for a console isn't dumbing it down, its change based on necessity, which is a good thing because console players deserve to play a proper RTS designed for them not pc gamers. Furthermore the RTS genre is slowly gaining in sales on the 360, just look at c&c3 which sold over 500k and end war which is over 600k. Not bad at all, not amazing either but the market is slowly growing and halo wars should hopefully intensify this market acceptance.

Nice post.

 

FaRmLaNd said: The problem with most rts games is they're designed for the pc and then ported. Goldeneye and Halo both show that if you take a genre and specifically design it for a console it will do wonders. Thats why halo is somewhat floaty and has loads of vehicles etc etc. It was made for consoles and thats why it plays so well on consoles. The same hopefully can be said for halo wars. Its designed from the ground up for a gamepad, that is the only way that an RTS will be made to work properly on a console. Adapting for a console isn't dumbing it down, its change based on necessity, which is a good thing because console players deserve to play a proper RTS designed for them not pc gamers. Furthermore the RTS genre is slowly gaining in sales on the 360, just look at c&c3 which sold over 500k and end war which is over 600k. Not bad at all, not amazing either but the market is slowly growing and halo wars should hopefully intensify this market acceptance.

Agreed.

Khuutra said: windbane said: you have already proven yourself to be wrong (Goldeneye having a smaller userbase?!), but like I've already told you: CoD1, CoD2, and CoD3 were made for console only. The first 2 weren't the PC versions, they were spinoffs, and CoD3 was console only. If that doesn't denote a shift to console, I don't know what to tell you. The Pandora Tomorrow multiplayer had spy vs merc, which you apparently know nothing about, but to say that wasn't influenced by Halo pulling off mulitplayer on console is crazy. microsoft established the online infracture to pull off games like that on consoles. MoH deserves credit for the PS1 release, but it wasn't near the game that Halo was and it didn't spawn a bunch of shooters like Halo did. Point conceded as to the N64's userbase. It is the only point which you will receive in this conversation, and affects the rest of the discussion not at all. Call of Duties 1-3 were not made for console only. Each of them started off on the PC. They were not spawned by Halo, either - they probably owed more to the success of Medal of Honor on the PC. One multiplayer mode does not magically change a third person stealth game into a first person shooter, stop being ridiculous. And Halo's matchmaking has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation insofar as "legitimizing console shooters" goes. Halo did not spawn any huge series. Halo's experience isn't even intrinsic to consoles. It showed that you oculd get a PC-ish experience running on a console, and PC games started showing up on consoles thereafter. It didn't spawn anything, it just showed developers that wiht some tweaking, the PC games they were already making could be shoehorned into the confines of a console's controls. It did not legitimize first person shooters on consoles. Goldeneye did. Halo showed that first person shooters on consoles were capable of being phenomenons. It also marked the signal for a metric ass-ton of PC ports to land. But it did not "spawn" many franchises that didn't already exist or owe more to other series, and it didn't spawn any that are still relevant in today's market.

"Call of Duty: Finest Hour is a first-person shooter for the Xbox, PlayStation 2 and GameCube video game consoles. It is published by Activision and developed by Spark Unlimited.

Although it is based on the original Call of Duty for the PC, it has a completely different storyline."

"Call of Duty 2: Big Red One is a World War II video game for the PlayStation 2, Xbox and GameCube. It was released on November 1, 2005, in Canada and the United States. While developed by Treyarch, personnel from Gray Matter Interactive, who created the Call of Duty: United Offensive expansion pack for the PC, also worked with them on the game. Pi Studios contributed as well."

"Call of Duty 3 is a World War II first-person shooter and the third installment in the Call of Duty video game series. It has been released for all three seventh generation video game systems: the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 and Wii. It has also been released on the PlayStation 2 and Xbox.^[1] It was first released on November 7, 2006.

It was also the first major Call of Duty installment not to be released for PC and the only numerical sequel to date to have been a console-exclusive game alongside Call of Duty 2: Big Red One and Call of Duty: Finest Hour. "

"The most significant gameplay change in Pandora Tomorrow is the addition of a multiplayer component to the series in an attempt to take advantage of the features and popularity of Xbox Live. Both the PlayStation 2 and PC versions of the game also come with multiplayer; however, the GameCube version does not. The game pits heavily armed Argus mercenaries against stealthy Shadownet spies. The spies are played from a third-person viewpoint and control similarly to the main game's singleplayer mode, although they have their own unique moves and equipment. The mercenaries are played from a first-person viewpoint, and control more similarly to traditional first-person shooter characters."

All quotes from wikipedia.  You have no credibility when it comes to shooters.  To say that Halo didn't inspire more FPS to appear on consoles is ridiculous.

 

Please. Finest Hour and Big Red One were spinoffs shoehorned into the console experience, but their primary source was still the PC games. Halo did not spawn that franchise, though I have no doubt that it had a great deal to do with the fact that it appeared on consoles.

Point 2 conceded: Call of Duty 3 wasn't on the PC. I had forgotten. It does not change the fact that the series' start was on the PC and owed nothing to Halo.

One multiplayer mode does not a first-person shooter make, not when it's a third person stealth action game. That is a ridiculous statement.

The goal posts at this point are so far back that I can barely see them. We have gone from:

.....hm.

Nevermind, then. The original point was as to whether or not Halo inspired a culture of shooters. I would hold that it didn't, not when a culture existed (in a smaller form) on the N64 and (to a smaller degree) on the Playstation, but that's no longer what we're talking about.

The point remains that Halo did not spawn those franchises. Yes, it is the chief reason they've been brought to consoles. I never contested that. But it did not spawn those series and it cannot hold claim to their existence.

blue-lady (starcraft?) makes a decent point in that Halo is the reason those PC games were brought to consoles, but the notion that it was in any way responsible for their original inception is erroneous and verifiable as false.

Your point that Halo stood as proof that first person shooters could work on consoles is just ridiculous.

blue-lady said: scottie said: You're basing this off the mistaken belief that Halo 1 brought FPS to consoles I assume? Sorry, Halo Wars is no more significant that any other console RTS Not at all. I'm basing it off the highly substantiated notion that Halo 1 made FPS relevant on consoles at large.

 

Goldeneye RTS will be huge

Khuutra said: Please. Finest Hour and Big Red One were spinoffs shoehorned into the console experience, but their primary source was still the PC games. Halo did not spawn that franchise, though I have no doubt that it had a great deal to do with the fact that it appeared on consoles. Point 2 conceded: Call of Duty 3 wasn't on the PC. I had forgotten. It does not change the fact that the series' start was on the PC and owed nothing to Halo. One multiplayer mode does not a first-person shooter make, not when it's a third person stealth action game. That is a ridiculous statement. All quotes from wikipedia. You have no credibility when it comes to shooters. To say that Halo didn't inspire more FPS to appear on consoles is ridiculous. The goal posts at this point are so far back that I can barely see them. We have gone from: .....hm. Nevermind, then. The original point was as to whether or not Halo inspired a culture of shooters. I would hold that it didn't, not when a culture existed (in a smaller form) on the N64 and (to a smaller degree) on the Playstation, but that's no longer what we're talking about. The point remains that Halo did not spawn those franchises. Yes, it is the chief reason they've been brought to consoles. I never contested that. But it did not spawn those series and it cannot hold claim to their existence. blue-lady (starcraft?) makes a decent point in that Halo is the reason those PC games were brought to consoles, but the notion that it was in any way responsible for their original inception is erroneous and verifiable as false. Your point that Halo stood as proof that first person shooters could work on consoles is just ridiculous.

 

1. My definition of "spawned" used here is the same as your finally admitting that Halo is largely responsible for the plethora of console FPS we see now. At first you scoffed at that notion. Since then you have been arguing over semantics. Halo did inspire a culture of shooters on consoles. Was it the sole inspiration? No, but it was the largest.

2. It doesn't matter if the term Call of Duty was originally thought of to be a PC game or not, the point remains that Finest Hour and Big Red One, which are totally different games from their PC counterparts, did come to consoles, and CoD3 was only on consoles. Original inception doesn't matter, the point is that Halo largely helped to open the door to consoles. I think you have almost come around there, at least. There are dozens of examples of FPS games that weren't on PC first, though, and those are listed above in my long post of FPS on PS2 and Xbox.

3. I never said that Halo was proof that first person shooters could work on consoles. I have said, nearly every freaking post, that Goldeneye is similar to Wolfenstein. Those showed the genre was possible on the respective mediums. Ok. Great. Done. I have never said otherwise! What I am saying is that Halo was the evolution that sparked the FPS boom on consoles. It got the controls right and provided means to play more than just 4 people at a time. Halo 2 added online.

Let's summarize what you have had wrong in this 1 thread: Xbox had larger install base than N64; Turok sold more than every non-Halo FPS on Xbox; N64 was some golden age of shooters when it only had 16 total, not many good ones, and only 3 that sold over 1 million copies; CoD1, 2, and 3 on consoles were just ports of PC games, especially funny since CoD3 wasn't even on PC; not knowing about spy vs merc which is a hugely popular online mode; and scoffing at a guy that says Halo inspired more shooters to show up on consoles.

I've never had to defend Xbox more in my life.

scottie said: blue-lady said: scottie said: You're basing this off the mistaken belief that Halo 1 brought FPS to consoles I assume? Sorry, Halo Wars is no more significant that any other console RTS Not at all. I'm basing it off the highly substantiated notion that Halo 1 made FPS relevant on consoles at large. Goldeneye RTS will be huge

WIN!!!

 

I will destroy you Alec.

 

Halo was the proof of concept for PC-style shooters using dual analog controls. That does not mean it established the console first person shooter culture in the first place. Yes, obviously it enriched it and expanded it, but it was not the progenitor of the genre any more than Final Fantasy 7 was. Halo and FF7 are similar in that respect - they are both responsible for expansion in their given markets, but they still build off of legacies which already exist. Goldeneye was still more important.



I have never argued that Halo didn't open the way for PC-style shooters on the consoles. I say as much in my last post. It's irrefutable. But Halo did not stand as the inception for those series and was not responsible for it. Yes, it had a lot to do with them being ported, but that doesn't make a difference.

And a stunning number of those titles are just derivative of PC titles in the first place.



Your own post refutes your defense:



Come off it. You may not have explicitly said that Goldeneye wasn't proof that FPSes could work on consoles, but saying that Halo was the one to prove it kind of accomplishes the same thing.



It has never been my claim that Call of Duty games were just ports from the PC, merely that those franchises already existed and were brought over from the PC. This isn ot to say that the spin-offs they put out were not original games, merely that they were not created for consoles, and illustrated a transfer of the FPS mindset from the PC to the console.

I am fully aware of Spies vs. Mercenaries, thank you, but one half of one multiplayer mode does not make the Splinter Cell theories into first person shooters. Do. Not be. Ridiculous.

I never denied that Halo brought over shooters and developers from the PC in a way that Goldeneye failed to do. I merely say that it did not create the first person shooter culture, was not the proof of concept for console first person shooters, and was not as important for establishing FPSes on consoles as Goldeneye was. Was Halo bigger? Certainly, once the second game came out. But it's like comparing Final Fantasy 7 in the west to the previous 3 games released stateside - one cannot claim that one "made" the genre when it is just an extension of things that were already there.

Guys, guys, guys. Halo is fun. For those of use lookng forward to HW, it is important. For those of you not looking forward to it, it means nothing. It won't change the way gamers view RTS games on console, but it most likely will provide the most console centric version of an RTS to date. We will have to wait and see if it is fun, but I am looking forwad to some campaign coop and online skirmishes. Anyone who wants to join me is more than welcome. Team speak is a must though.

Khuutra said: 1. My definition of "spawned" used here is the same as your finally admitting that Halo is largely responsible for the plethora of console FPS we see now. At first you scoffed at that notion. Since then you have been arguing over semantics. Halo did inspire a culture of shooters on consoles. Was it the sole inspiration? No, but it was the largest. Halo was the proof of concept for PC-style shooters using dual analog controls. That does not mean it established the console first person shooter culture in the first place. Yes, obviously it enriched it and expanded it, but it was not the progenitor of the genre any more than Final Fantasy 7 was. Halo and FF7 are similar in that respect - they are both responsible for expansion in their given markets, but they still build off of legacies which already exist. Goldeneye was still more important. 2. It doesn't matter if the term Call of Duty was originally thought of to be a PC game or not, the point remains that Finest Hour and Big Red One, which are totally different games from their PC counterparts, did come to consoles, and CoD3 was only on consoles. Original inception doesn't matter, the point is that Halo largely helped to open the door to consoles. I think you have almost come around there, at least. There are dozens of examples of FPS games that weren't on PC first, though, and those are listed above in my long post of FPS on PS2 and Xbox. I have never argued that Halo didn't open the way for PC-style shooters on the consoles. I say as much in my last post. It's irrefutable. But Halo did not stand as the inception for those series and was not responsible for it. Yes, it had a lot to do with them being ported, but that doesn't make a difference. And a stunning number of those titles are just derivative of PC titles in the first place. 3. I never said that Halo was proof that first person shooters could work on consoles. I have said, nearly every freaking post, that Goldeneye is similar to Wolfenstein. Those showed the genre was possible on the respective mediums. Ok. Great. Done. I have never said otherwise! What I am saying is that Halo was the evolution that sparked the FPS boom on consoles. It got the controls right and provided means to play more than just 4 people at a time. Halo 2 added online. Your own post refutes your defense: until dual stick controls, which goldeneye didn't use, the control scheme for FPS was terrible. Halo 1, with lan, and Halo 2, with online, showed that console FPS can work just like PC FPS. Goldeneye didn't. Come off it. You may not have explicitly said that Goldeneye wasn't proof that FPSes could work on consoles, but saying that Halo was the one to prove it kind of accomplishes the same thing. Let's summarize what you have had wrong in this 1 thread: Xbox had larger install base than N64; Turok sold more than every non-Halo FPS on Xbox; N64 was some golden age of shooters when it only had 16 total, not many good ones, and only 3 that sold over 1 million copies; CoD1, 2, and 3 on consoles were just ports of PC games, especially funny since CoD3 wasn't even on PC; not knowing about spy vs merc which is a hugely popular online mode; and scoffing at a guy that says Halo inspired more shooters to show up on consoles. It has never been my claim that Call of Duty games were just ports from the PC, merely that those franchises already existed and were brought over from the PC. This isn ot to say that the spin-offs they put out were not original games, merely that they were not created for consoles, and illustrated a transfer of the FPS mindset from the PC to the console. I am fully aware of Spies vs. Mercenaries, thank you, but one half of one multiplayer mode does not make the Splinter Cell theories into first person shooters. Do. Not be. Ridiculous. I never denied that Halo brought over shooters and developers from the PC in a way that Goldeneye failed to do. I merely say that it did not create the first person shooter culture, was not the proof of concept for console first person shooters, and was not as important for establishing FPSes on consoles as Goldeneye was. Was Halo bigger? Certainly, once the second game came out. But it's like comparing Final Fantasy 7 in the west to the previous 3 games released stateside - one cannot claim that one "made" the genre when it is just an extension of things that were already there.

 

Your method of quoting really makes responding elegantly too tedious.

1.  Goldeneye might been inspiration for Bungie, you'd have to ask them, but there's way any console shooter was based on Goldeneye after Halo came out because Halo did FPS more like a PC-style shooter. You can argue over which is more important in general, but Halo established the FPS genre on consoles for good, whereas Goldeneye provided a cheap alternative because the controls weren't nearly as good and only allowed 4 players.

2.  I'm glad you have come around to the fact that Halo inspired more console shooters, regardless of their origin.

3.  "work JUST LIKE PC FPS" is a little different than saying Halo proved it could work (period).  Have you played Goldeneye lately?  It doesn't hold up.  Compared to PC FPS, it was garbage.  Goldeneye inpired a trickle of console FPS, Halo greatly expanded it.

4.  Half the mode is FPS, and that was the selling point of the game.  It's not ridiculous to include that when multiplayer is the foundation of a popular FPS.  However, the other dozens of FPS proved my point, but you've at least admitted to that.

5.  Don't know why you keep implying that I've said Halo made the genre, because I never have.  At least you admit that Halo was bigger.