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Forums - Gaming - Why is programming for HD consoles so expsnive?

twesterm said:

It's more because more is expected. Five years ago people could get away with lower res textures, lower poly objects, and things like actors clipping into other actors.

Nowadays, things have to be much higher res, things are expected to be bigger and more grand, and the quality bar has been raised super high.

It's a shame really because people see games like Killzone 2 that have been in development for half a decade with an unlimited budget and people expect every game to be on par with that when that just can't happen. Still though, people expect it, so development times have to become longer and more people have to get put on the already expensive project so the cost goes up even more.

You can have a really good game come along that looks good and plays well but if it doesn't look like whatever the big game is, it's crap.

 

exactly, its a shame that great games sell bad because they arent as good looking as others big budget games..

OP: HD games need to have higher resolutions, that means bigger amount of polygons and bigger amount of time spent



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exit52000 said:

I see what your saying about Killzone 2, however I think the problem is planning.

If you look at the development pictures of Killzone of the years you notice that characters change backgrounds change things are improved left, right and centre.  The game ends up looking nothing like it did when it first started.

Now thats to be expected to a certain degree.  But the changes in Killzone 2 are vast.  I wonder how many times the developers have changed whole sections of code that if it were thought out properly in the first place wouldnt have had to be changed at all.

I dont know why developers dont work on their engine first.  get it as good as it can be and then develop games in it

 

I promise you every game changes over time.  You can have absolutely perfect planning and you will still always have touchups, better ideas, improvements, and feature creep.  It's just one of those inevitable things.

 



Showertea said:
The same reason it's cheaper to draw a stick figure than a photorealistic painting.

Higher definition images are harder to texture. Six times as much detail means every texture on every rock, every gun, every torso has to take six times as long to make.

This right here is the primary reason game dev costs have exploded: more complex textures, more complex models, more complex animations, etc.--essentially, the artwork requirements have gone through the roof and soared up through and beyond the stratosphere and have far, far outstripped costs for programming, design, and nearly every other aspect of actual development (we won't even get into some of the more egregious marketing situations, where many games are treated like Hollywood summer tentpole pictures in their advertising outlay).




twesterm said:

It's more because more is expected. Five years ago people could get away with lower res textures, lower poly objects, and things like actors clipping into other actors.

Nowadays, things have to be much higher res, things are expected to be bigger and more grand, and the quality bar has been raised super high.

It's a shame really because people see games like Killzone 2 that have been in development for half a decade with an unlimited budget and people expect every game to be on par with that when that just can't happen. Still though, people expect it, so development times have to become longer and more people have to get put on the already expensive project so the cost goes up even more.

You can have a really good game come along that looks good and plays well but if it doesn't look like whatever the big game is, it's crap.

This to a pretty big extent.

 



Groucho said:

If you're talking about JRPGs, there's honesty not a lot of extra engineering work to be done for a HD console, as opposed to the Wii or PS2. If you're talking WRPGs, where you can fiddle with the environment, and the world is open, there's a LOT of extra engineering work to be done on the HDs, merely because HD WRPGs (e.g.: Oblivion, Fallout 3) are really ambitious.

If Wii RPGs were that ambitious, they would require just as much work... maybe more, since meeting that kind of ambition with lesser hardware would entail a lot of low level engineering work.

But according to Capcom they moved Monster Hunter 3 to the Wii due to high PS3 development costs.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/high-ps3-costs-prompt-capcom-to-move-to-wii

PS: RPGs are not really my thing so I may be committing some mistake here in assuming this is a JRPG.

 



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NJ5 said:
Groucho said:

If you're talking about JRPGs, there's honesty not a lot of extra engineering work to be done for a HD console, as opposed to the Wii or PS2. If you're talking WRPGs, where you can fiddle with the environment, and the world is open, there's a LOT of extra engineering work to be done on the HDs, merely because HD WRPGs (e.g.: Oblivion, Fallout 3) are really ambitious.

If Wii RPGs were that ambitious, they would require just as much work... maybe more, since meeting that kind of ambition with lesser hardware would entail a lot of low level engineering work.

But according to Capcom they moved Monster Hunter 3 to the Wii due to high PS3 development costs.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/high-ps3-costs-prompt-capcom-to-move-to-wii

PS: RPGs are not really my thing so I may be committing some mistake here in assuming this is a JRPG.

 

Perhaps they believe expectations are lower on the Wii, and thus they could reduce their scope/cost?

I've personally ported a reasonably advanced Wii project to the PS3 in just a couple weeks (basically by myself), with no performance hiccups at the end.  Its very easy to do if the code is mostly C/C++.

 



Groucho said:
NJ5 said:
Groucho said:

If you're talking about JRPGs, there's honesty not a lot of extra engineering work to be done for a HD console, as opposed to the Wii or PS2. If you're talking WRPGs, where you can fiddle with the environment, and the world is open, there's a LOT of extra engineering work to be done on the HDs, merely because HD WRPGs (e.g.: Oblivion, Fallout 3) are really ambitious.

If Wii RPGs were that ambitious, they would require just as much work... maybe more, since meeting that kind of ambition with lesser hardware would entail a lot of low level engineering work.

But according to Capcom they moved Monster Hunter 3 to the Wii due to high PS3 development costs.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/high-ps3-costs-prompt-capcom-to-move-to-wii

PS: RPGs are not really my thing so I may be committing some mistake here in assuming this is a JRPG.

 

Perhaps they believe expectations are lower on the Wii, and thus they could reduce their scope/cost?

I've personally ported a reasonably advanced Wii project to the PS3 in just a couple weeks (basically by myself), with no performance hiccups at the end.  Its very easy to do if the code is mostly C/C++.

 

Oh yes, regarding the code part I suppose the costs aren't much higher for certain projects at least as you said.

But what about the artistic assets, surely you didn't use the Wii ones without any changes? Especially textures.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

twesterm said:

It's more because more is expected. Five years ago people could get away with lower res textures, lower poly objects, and things like actors clipping into other actors.

People still get away with that, look at cod4 for example, its the best selling HD game, and its graphics are not very good at all.  The game has N64 textures at best in many places.  And the game is native 600p.

 



NJ5 said:
Groucho said:

Perhaps they believe expectations are lower on the Wii, and thus they could reduce their scope/cost?

I've personally ported a reasonably advanced Wii project to the PS3 in just a couple weeks (basically by myself), with no performance hiccups at the end.  Its very easy to do if the code is mostly C/C++.

 

Oh yes, regarding the code part I suppose the costs aren't much higher for certain projects at least as you said.

But what about the artistic assets, surely you didn't use the Wii ones without any changes? Especially textures.

 

Actually I had source textures which were already larger than the Wii could handle, and they made an easy transition to the PS3.  The models would have to have been rebuilt, if the artists wanted to take full advantage of the RSX's speed, of course, as you suggest, but again we had high poly source from the initial concepts, so reducing that source less would not have been overly difficult or expensive.

Adding some funky shading techniques, and textures for it, would have taken some time, but not really anything substantial, relative to projects which are designed with the 360/PS3 in mind to begin with -- you'd have to go nuts with a Wii-sized game's rendering costs, for which the levels are inherently small by design, to really tax the PS360 and require a lot of engineering/art time.

Its the ambition of the big projects (they are almost always over-ambitious, and have to be toned down iteratively) that drives the cost.  The art improvements are relatively trivial by comparison to the zillion features and ultra performance + super shader techniques (one or the other is easy) that an originally high-end design calls for.

The fact that the Wii is very close to the original XBox gives anyone who worked on the XBox, last gen, a pretty big advantage, from the design perspective.  They already have a good idea where the high-bar is -- Thus, less iterations in development, and the end cost gets cheaper.

Back to MH3... they reduced its costs by making it less cool, and they don't want to ship a less cool title on the PS360, for fear of ugly critical comparisons.  ...and lets face it, MH is the craze in Japan, and so is the Wii.  The Wii will drive JRPGs this gen for that fact alone.  You can call that speculation, as I suppose there might be only one knowledgable PS3 programmer for hire near the developer of MH3, and he costs $1B yen per year or something, but... I think that my speculation is probably pretty close to the truth.

 

Wii: much more potential sales in Japan, less critical audience.

PS3: less potential sales, more critical audience.

 

The same game would cost the same to make on both platforms, even though it would look better on the PS3 (Actually, heck, it'd be cheaper on the PS3, since you wouldn't have to optimize it).  PS3 owners expect more, there are more Wii owners, and they are much less demanding when it comes to features or technical whiz-bang.  JRPGs don't really need to "wow" their audience to be great (I know MH is kinda a wierd Action RPG, but.. whatever).  

Capcom made the obvious choice.  MH3 will be the coolest MH ever.. compared to the PS2 and PSP ones, of course.  If they were trying to fit a Wii-sized game on the PS3, I would wager the PS3 version would actually cost less -- but the potential profits would be far lower, so it doesn't matter.  That, and a Wii-grade game on the PS3 would only really be critically acceptable (to the demanding PS3 audience) if it were a less expensive PSN download.



Apart from better looking games I have really seen many that are meeting these so called high expectations of yours.  Most of are just the next in a series.