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Forums - General - VGC Poll: Abortion

WessleWoggle said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."

That quote assumes human life has any value in the first place though...

Don't get me wrong, let me elaborate, human life has no value, only human knowledge, and human acheivement. A unborn fetus child, whatever, has neither. Human potential though does have value... But it's value should not be forced.

 

How does human life itself have no value? please explain? So what your stating is that the average joe who lets say isn't the most knowledgeable person or has achieved great things in life, well that his life is of no value?

 

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

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akuma587 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."

(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion

Well said.

 

Well said....not really. Try reading over his statement again and you'll find it does make sense, and is not a stab at emotion. It's a very logical way of putting it. How can one justify what form of life isn't important? In an abortion what alot of people don't seem to fully understand is that it's an actualy living human being inside the mother. So therefore to terminate the pregnancy they do have to kill the unborn child.

I just personally find it appualling how people can act as if its nothing and that because the child is unborn its life is meaningless, but thats just my opinion.

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

I'm not advocating that a fetus's life isn't important. I've never said that. But I do think that a woman's right to choose how to control her life is as important or more important. Its up to her to make the decision.

I'd rather she just use birth control in the first place and never get pregnant. But life isn't always that simple. I just don't prefer to impose my will on other people. And before those words get contorted, being pro-choice is not imposing your will on others. You can argue that it is, but giving people a choice is not imposing something on them. They are still entitled to make whatever decision they want.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Nirvana_Nut85 said:
akuma587 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."
(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion
Well said.
Well said....not really. Try reading over his statement again and you'll find it does make sense, and is not a stab at emotion. It's a very logical way of putting it. How can one justify what form of life isn't important? In an abortion what alot of people don't seem to fully understand is that it's an actualy living human being inside the mother. So therefore to terminate the pregnancy they do have to kill the unborn child.

I just personally find it appualling how people can act as if its nothing and that because the child is unborn its life is meaningless, but thats just my opinion.

His argument is just about semantics.  Whether people ask a pregnant woman abot her "baby" or her "fetus" is utterly irrelevant to the factual question of whether the thing in question is a person or not.  That is the debate worth having, not ranting about people making incorrect statements about a human body's stage of development.  

The quote is just pro-life propaganda about what he sees as pro-choice propaganda, and not any actual argument about abortion at all. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
akuma587 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."
(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion
Well said.
Well said....not really. Try reading over his statement again and you'll find it does make sense, and is not a stab at emotion. It's a very logical way of putting it. How can one justify what form of life isn't important? In an abortion what alot of people don't seem to fully understand is that it's an actualy living human being inside the mother. So therefore to terminate the pregnancy they do have to kill the unborn child.

I just personally find it appualling how people can act as if its nothing and that because the child is unborn its life is meaningless, but thats just my opinion.

His argument is just about semantics.  Whether people ask a pregnant woman abot her "baby" or her "fetus" is utterly irrelevant to the factual question of whether the thing in question is a person or not.  That is the debate worth having, not ranting about people making incorrect statements about a human body's stage of development.  

The quote is just pro-life propaganda about what he sees as pro-choice propaganda, and not any actual argument about abortion at all. 

It does have relevence because the question is as Dr. Ron Paul stated we try to classify human life as irrelevant when it suits are own selfish need. Human life is still human life wether its a baby in it's mother's womb or someone like me and you. It's just as he stated when someone doesn't want the baby we use terms like fetus or tissue to attempt justify killing the baby inside when it's not wanted (or the candy coated term of terminating the pregnancy). 

 

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

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Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
akuma587 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."
(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion
Well said.
Well said....not really. Try reading over his statement again and you'll find it does make sense, and is not a stab at emotion. It's a very logical way of putting it. How can one justify what form of life isn't important? In an abortion what alot of people don't seem to fully understand is that it's an actualy living human being inside the mother. So therefore to terminate the pregnancy they do have to kill the unborn child.

I just personally find it appualling how people can act as if its nothing and that because the child is unborn its life is meaningless, but thats just my opinion.
His argument is just about semantics.  Whether people ask a pregnant woman abot her "baby" or her "fetus" is utterly irrelevant to the factual question of whether the thing in question is a person or not.  That is the debate worth having, not ranting about people making incorrect statements about a human body's stage of development.

The quote is just pro-life propaganda about what he sees as pro-choice propaganda, and not any actual argument about abortion at all.
It does have relevence because the question is as Dr. Ron Paul stated we try to classify human life as irrelevant when it suits are own selfish need. Human life is still human life wether its a baby in it's mother's womb or someone like me and you. It's just as he stated when someone doesn't want the baby we use terms like fetus or tissue to attempt justify killing the baby inside when it's not wanted (or the candy coated term of terminating the pregnancy).

 You're missing the point and (to be fair) so, perhaps, was he. 

If people really think of it explicitly as a baby until they decide to get rid of it, and then think of it as a mere lump of flesh, then sure, they're hypocrites.  But that's in their own minds. 

The object of their thoughts does not change based on their thoughts about it.  Indeed, that's Ron Paul's entire point.  So the question is, which is the correct view?  Is it a tiny little person, or is it not a person yet?  You're assuming one answer to this question, but the quoted material does nothing to prove this. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
akuma587 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."
(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion
Well said.
Well said....not really. Try reading over his statement again and you'll find it does make sense, and is not a stab at emotion. It's a very logical way of putting it. How can one justify what form of life isn't important? In an abortion what alot of people don't seem to fully understand is that it's an actualy living human being inside the mother. So therefore to terminate the pregnancy they do have to kill the unborn child.

I just personally find it appualling how people can act as if its nothing and that because the child is unborn its life is meaningless, but thats just my opinion.
His argument is just about semantics.  Whether people ask a pregnant woman abot her "baby" or her "fetus" is utterly irrelevant to the factual question of whether the thing in question is a person or not.  That is the debate worth having, not ranting about people making incorrect statements about a human body's stage of development.

The quote is just pro-life propaganda about what he sees as pro-choice propaganda, and not any actual argument about abortion at all.
It does have relevence because the question is as Dr. Ron Paul stated we try to classify human life as irrelevant when it suits are own selfish need. Human life is still human life wether its a baby in it's mother's womb or someone like me and you. It's just as he stated when someone doesn't want the baby we use terms like fetus or tissue to attempt justify killing the baby inside when it's not wanted (or the candy coated term of terminating the pregnancy).

 You're missing the point and (to be fair) so, perhaps, was he. 

If people really think of it explicitly as a baby until they decide to get rid of it, and then think of it as a mere lump of flesh, then sure, they're hypocrites.  But that's in their own minds. 

The object of their thoughts does not change based on their thoughts about it.  Indeed, that's Ron Paul's entire point.  So the question is, which is the correct view?  Is it a tiny little person, or is it not a person yet?  You're assuming one answer to this question, but the quoted material does nothing to prove this. 

Not trying to be rude here but the problem is that I don't think you fully understand what he's trying to say, but thats ok I'll try and be a little more clear if your having trouble understanding.

 He was simply stating how in this society when a woman  is pregnant people will ask her how's the baby coming along and refer to it as a baby, yet when a woman who gets pregnant and does not want the child, we act as if that baby is just a pile of tissue, a fetus(depending on the stage ect) to help us justify killing the baby inside when its not wanted.

You need to re-read what he said because I think your confusing yourself . It's not assuming an answer to any question because there was no question, but merely stating how people act as if human life is less human when it suits them. That is a fact with most people.

 

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

WessleWoggle said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
WessleWoggle said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."

That quote assumes human life has any value in the first place though...

Don't get me wrong, let me elaborate, human life has no value, only human knowledge, and human acheivement. A unborn fetus child, whatever, has neither. Human potential though does have value... But it's value should not be forced.

 

How does human life itself have no value? please explain? So what your stating is that the average joe who lets say isn't the most knowledgeable person or has achieved great things in life, well that his life is of no value?

 

 

Life, or human life has no base value. Only potential for value. Truthfully nothing has any value but what we give it... So, lifes value, the only one that I can think off past physical value, is to give things other things value through perception... They do not have value in the first place though, past their energy value, because we're all made out of energy.

Humans are just globs of cells with mental activity. Same with fetuses. Most prolifers try to make it out, that you're somehow special, objectively your are not.

Of course, subjectively to me, human life does have value, because I'm not an immoral monster. But when it comes to arguments about thinks like abortion, I must seperate from the biased flawed mother fucker known as me, and try to think as an unbiased observer.

Thinking outside my small self, like Bill and Ted said to Socrates, all we are is dust in the wind, dude.

 

 

If you look at it from the perspective that human life is precious then it does have a value, even if its unborn and in the womb of the mother, even if were just a pile of cells with metal activity and energy.

I'm going to assume (and correct me if I'm wrong) that your looking at it from an athiest perspective. THats where are values differ then because I look at it from more of a spiritual aspect (and no not like the kooks you see on t.v)

 

 

 

 



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
akuma587 said:
Final-Fan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Pro Life and I'd like to quote something that I found very interesting while reading The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul

"People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask her how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared unwanted. In both cases, we try to make human life into something less than human, simply according to our will."
(A) Baby is a more natural word for most people to use in ordinary conversation

(B) This is not any kind of valid argument for the pro-life position, only a blatant stab at emotion
Well said.
Well said....not really. Try reading over his statement again and you'll find it does make sense, and is not a stab at emotion. It's a very logical way of putting it. How can one justify what form of life isn't important? In an abortion what alot of people don't seem to fully understand is that it's an actualy living human being inside the mother. So therefore to terminate the pregnancy they do have to kill the unborn child.

I just personally find it appualling how people can act as if its nothing and that because the child is unborn its life is meaningless, but thats just my opinion.
His argument is just about semantics.  Whether people ask a pregnant woman abot her "baby" or her "fetus" is utterly irrelevant to the factual question of whether the thing in question is a person or not.  That is the debate worth having, not ranting about people making incorrect statements about a human body's stage of development.

The quote is just pro-life propaganda about what he sees as pro-choice propaganda, and not any actual argument about abortion at all.
It does have relevence because the question is as Dr. Ron Paul stated we try to classify human life as irrelevant when it suits are own selfish need. Human life is still human life wether its a baby in it's mother's womb or someone like me and you. It's just as he stated when someone doesn't want the baby we use terms like fetus or tissue to attempt justify killing the baby inside when it's not wanted (or the candy coated term of terminating the pregnancy).
You're missing the point and (to be fair) so, perhaps, was he.

If people really think of it explicitly as a baby until they decide to get rid of it, and then think of it as a mere lump of flesh, then sure, they're hypocrites.  But that's in their own minds.

The object of their thoughts does not change based on their thoughts about it.  Indeed, that's Ron Paul's entire point.  So the question is, which is the correct view?  Is it a tiny little person, or is it not a person yet?  You're assuming one answer to this question, but the quoted material does nothing to prove this.
Not trying to be rude here but the problem is that I don't think you fully understand what he's trying to say, but thats ok I'll try and be a little more clear if your having trouble understanding.

He was simply stating how in this society when a woman is pregnant people will ask her how's the baby coming along and refer to it as a baby, yet when a woman who gets pregnant and does not want the child, we act as if that baby is just a pile of tissue, a fetus(depending on the stage ect) to help us justify killing the baby inside when its not wanted.

You need to re-read what he said because I think your confusing yourself . It's not assuming an answer to any question because there was no question, but merely stating how people act as if human life is less human when it suits them. That is a fact with most people.

I understand perfectly what he was trying to say.  In fact I restated the same thing that you restated.  If my restatement was substantially different from yours (except in the fact that it was couched inside an if/then construction as part of another point), then perhaps we actually do have a problem. 

My point is that what he said is only an indictment of the hypocrites who do that.  It says nothing to prove that they were right the first time -- that it actually is a baby (a person) instead of a bunch of developing human tissue that will someday become a person.  What if they were right with their second belief?  They're still hypocrites, but not murderers. 

Yes, exactly.  There is no question -- you're not even allowing the question to be asked, just making the assumption that the pro-life position is correct.  To use this as a pro-life argument is massively begging the question.  If you weren't intending to use this as a pro-life argument, but were merely preaching about people being hypocrites, then I'm sorry for assuming otherwise and please STFU. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

akuma587 said:
elprincipe said:
akuma587 said:

You can make the same argument about a lot of things.  What if I am a pacifist and don't want to pay the government taxes to wage war?  Can I just refuse to do so?  No, I can't, because the government gives a shit about everybody, not just what I want.

What if I am upset that black people are coming into my restaurant and I don't want them to be there?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think alcohol is completlely immoral and should be outlawed?  The government protects the greater interest rather than my interest.

What if I think abortion is murder?  You get my drift.  The government recognizes a greater interest that needs to be protected because there is a reasonable basis for allowing abortion to protect people's rights.

Because you don't understand that is like saying you don't understand why the government doesn't allow people to discriminate against people.  I am not implying that those two things are necessarily of equal weight, but just because you think something is immoral doesn't mean the government or society has to agree with you.

 

None of the things you describe involves a human life, except for repeating what I said.  You fail.  The government's number one job is to ensure our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Life is listed first for a very good reason, because the others can't follow unless you have life.  Your analogy is very poor.

 

Since when did war not involve human life?

I'm not getting drug into another argument as I have had plenty in this thread, but suffice it to say you haven't convinced anyone except yourself.

 

You mean I haven't convinced you (and I'm sure some others who rationalize their permissive attitude toward baby-killing).  You can't speak for others.  Which is not surprising in the least.  But your strawman argument does nothing for the debate.  It's like me saying you are anti-choice for not allowing the baby a choice.  It just ignores your view completely, even if it comports with my view.  Next you'll say that I only have such a position because I'm a religious fanatic or something.  Oh dear, we do go in circles, don't we?

 



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