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Forums - Gaming - Madden comparison: PS3 vs 360

libellule said:
""""""""""I just wanted to highlight this comment. You will not see any difference whatsoever in this video, because the video isn't running at 60 fps. Makes the whole exercise pretty useless. """"""""

==> so u aggree this video doesnt show anything ??????

If the video is running at 30fps, you wouldn't see the difference between 30fps and 60fps unless on version dips much. In fact, framerate differences are more easily "felt" in more responsive controls than they are seen. Very fast paced games like FPS games and racers make this a very huge benefit, but a game like madden will just "seem better" to many gamers if it is running at a higher framerate.

To understand the kinds of tradeoffs they may have made, here is a very simplified version of how a game engine may do things where the time delta is defined as the time from frame to frame:

(1) Process the user input over the time delta 

(2) Calculate the AI for the time delta 

(3) Calculate the physics for the time delta 

(4) Calculate the movements for the time delta 

(5) Calculate the animations for the time Delta

(6)  Perform the rendering path

Certain things must be done before others can be done -- user input must be done before phsyics, physics before movement, movement before animations, all of this before rendering, etc.  You could do many of these calculations while rendering the previous frame if you have enough available CPU cores.  Consider that you often have less than 1/2 time delta to actually perform the rendering itself.  This could be mitigated if you could do the other calculations in advance, but you still have to complete each of those steps, or each series, in less time than the delta.  So if you had enough available CPU threads, you could accomplish all of these things with a (1/2) time delta compared to if you had only one or two CPU threads.  

For a game like Madden it is a far better tradeoff than simplifying the AI or physics so I think EA made the right choice.



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Goddbless said:
Do you people even care about Madden?

 yeah I care I want to kick some cowboys and colts ass with the bears lol



TheBigFatJ said:
Takashii360 said:
AntiFanTard said:
Actually, it's the fact that developers like EA and Ubisoft are lazy and would rather port titles from 360 to PS3. The programmers aren't using the PS3 hardware. They're basically emulating Xbox titles.

Correct.....Developers are just lazy and just want to hurry up and send the game out and think they can make cash....and if the consumers find that its was crappy....they might just hold off on the PS3 because nobody bought Madden...its sad how no developers are taking the PS3 hardware serious...only games that are exclusive to the system are good....so third parties....


I would guess it would have more to do with the technical difference between the consoles -- the 360 has:

(1) More available memory after OS footprint + a more flexible memory architecture

(2) Much more general purpose CPU power

(3) Higher fill rate

We may disagree as to why the 360 version runs better than the PS3 version, but the bottom line is that the 360 version looks to provide a better experience. The reasons are, for better or worse, irrelevant.

Leo-j: What Sony said is more or less obvious but it doesn't mean EA is being lazy. The Wii could run Madden at 60fps if the devs wanted to. There are trade-offs. Let's assume for each frame at 60fps that you spend 1/2 of the time rendering graphics. If you drop to 30fps, you may only spend 1/4th of each frame time rendering things -- you can spend more time on AI, physics, etc. A complication arises when you're working with many threads because you can have different threads calculationg the AI, physics and rendering simultaneously. This is the Xbox 360 advantage: it has 6 threads that can be used for such things. The PS3 has two running at the same speed as the 360.

EA is probably not "being lazy" and anyone who uses this for their reasoning most likely has very little understanding about how game engines work. They may simply believe that divergent framerate is the best trade-off when dealing with fewer available general purpose CPU threads.

Consider also that many of EAs games run at 30fps, so another possibility is that they may have written the game targeting PS3 architecture at 30fps and realized that the 360 could do the same thing at 60fps if they offloaded some tasks onto other CPU cores not available on the PS3. If this was the case, why not improve the 360 version where possible?


The Wii version of Madden does run at 60fps. In fact the only console version of Madden that runs less than 60fps is the PS3 version. The PS2/XB/GC versions of Madden have been running at 60fps for years. 



Blame the developers, publishers, or whomever all you want, but in the end, it's Sony's fault the majority of multiplatform games don't look as good. Sony should be giving them the means and reason to develop for their platform, whether that's a large userbase, an easy to code platform, or anything else, but 3rd parties are only going to put in as much time and money as it takes to get a return on their investment, and if it takes longer to develop on a platform with a small userbase, you're going to get crappy quality games from 3rd party.



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Takashii360 sa...t they can't push the hardware to its limit...

 I have read this sentence "push hardware to the limit" one billion time on Internet.

Would someone care to explain me what it is meaning, precisely ? I can write in 5 mn a piece of code that uses 100% CPU time during 10 years on whatever CPU you want and makes  ... Nothing !

 As most of those who use this sentence don't understand that, how do you want them to understand the practical differences between a general purpose multi-core CPU and a distributed parallel one !!

As a pure genious like Carmack stated years ago, there is a paradygm shift in complexity of coding between mono-thread model programming and multi-thread model one.

 He was reluctant to go in this direction (you have now an idea how it is difficult) but was forced due to the fact that the whole CPU industry was aiming in this direction. Look what he succeeded to provide !

 You have to understand that there is a paradygm shift in complexity between multi-thread model to distributed parallel one !

Are the things more clearer regarding the laziness of programmers on PS3 !?

(i can continue if you want) 



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At least Ubi is improving ....their Rainbow Six Vegas and GRAW2 ports are spot-on with the 360 versions .Lets hope EA follows the same path ,after all it took them 2 Madden editions to be able to run it at 60FPS as in this year edition .

In respect to the video ,I am not a great american football fan so I cant comment too much ,probably you are seeing things I dont ,but I dont see too much difference .In my eyes they are virtually the same .



Actually this year's 360 version of Madden is the first version on consoles to have 60fps.

source: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/02/1up-360-football-games-to-run-faster-than-ps3/



oli2 said:
Takashii360 sa...t they can't push the hardware to its limit...

I have read this sentence "push hardware to the limit" one billion time on Internet.

Would someone care to explain me what it is meaning, precisely ? I can write in 5 mn a piece of code that uses 100% CPU time during 10 years on whatever CPU you want and makes ... Nothing !

As most of those who use this sentence don't understand that, how do you want them to understand the practical differences between a general purpose multi-core CPU and a distributed parallel one !!

As a pure genious like Carmack stated years ago, there is a paradygm shift in complexity of coding between mono-thread model programming and multi-thread model one.

He was reluctant to go in this direction (you have now an idea how it is difficult) but was forced due to the fact that the whole CPU industry was aiming in this direction. Look what he succeeded to provide !

You have to understand that there is a paradygm shift in complexity between multi-thread model to distributed parallel one !

Are the things more clearer regarding the laziness of programmers on PS3 !?

(i can continue if you want)


 yes please continue it's really interesting and instructive... I4m always up for a pice of knowledge :)



leo-j said:
Darc Requiem said:
Hus said:
starcraft said:

It seems that the programming difficulties of the PS3 are seriously affecting the quality of some major third party games. Lets hope EA and others come to grip with it by next year.



No,bum ass developers are affecting the quality of games.

Sonys nba game is doing 1080p at 60fps, Ea just sucks.

 


First of all as freedquaker says its the publishers that are the problem. If the developer is given a short time frame, they either have to cut corners or lose the job to a development house that will do what is necessary to get the game out by the publishers deadline.

Secondly, its foolish to compare a football game to basketball game. A football game has to render a larger stadium, 22 players, referees, and the coaches/players on the sidelines. There are more football players on one teams sideline than their are basketball players on a court. A baskeball game has to render a small arena, 10 players, referees, and coaches/players on the sidelines. An NBA roster has 10 players, and NFL roster has 53, do the math Hus.

Also, All Pro Football 2K8 also runs at 60fps on 360 and 30fps on PS3. In other words, the PS3's architecture is not completely blameless in this situation. Factor 5 is having frame rate issues with Lair and Factor 5 is most definitely NOT lazy.

The ps3 is not the problem, its that theY PORT THE 360 VERSION ON THE PS3 VERSION WHEN THEY FINISH THE 360 VERSION that's easy money for them and they dont give a F if the ps3 version looks crappy since they still make money of it. Sony already said its not the problem, look at baseball it runs at 60fps, and its a way bigger feild than basketball courts.

 


Yes the PS3 is the problem. It takes more time to get the same performance and sports games have a strict release schedule since they release on a yearly basis. They have been working on both versions since they finished up Madden 07. The Wii version of Madden 08 looks significantly better than Madden 07 and still maintains a 60fps framerate because the hardware is easier to develop on. 

As for the Baseball comparsion, its not much better than the basketball one. There are 10 players on the field in a baseball game. The hitter and the 9 players on defense. You can add to that the three umpires, a batter in the on deck circle, the crowd, and the stadium. Because of the slower pace, a baseball game is probably less intensive to render than even a basketball game.  



A simple analogy would be this:

If the 360 lets you get from point A to point B in a straight line, while the PS3 takes strange turns and paths to get from point A to point B, then it simply takes considerably longer to walk from point A to point B on the PS3 than it does on the 360. They can both get there, however.

You can blame the developers for not walking the whole distance, but you can also blame the people who designed the path in such a silly way; that would be Sony.



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