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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4, 97 at Metacritic!PS2 IS NOT DEAD!

naznatips on 09 December 2008
BengaBenga said:

I agree there won't be a single JRPG console to own. Untill now it's clearly the 360, but next year there will be a lot of Wii JRPGs. PS3 is kinda sad atm.

Fire Emblem doesn't have any benefit from being published by Nintendo, aside from maybe being available at retailers (which isn't even the case) due to good distribution. There was no advertising for it and it doesn't have any recognizable Nintendo mascots. It simply sold well because, contrary to popular believe, there actually ARE hardcore gamers on the Wii.

A majority of Wii owners are casual so won't buy JRPGs. But the majority of the HD consoles is made up of shooter fans... The PS3 doesn't have a single JRPG seller yet and still you think it's more logical P5 will be on PS3 than on Wii, despite Wii having abou 3x as much consoles in Japan and at least has some evidence it can sell JRPGs. I do agree that a PS2 version is very likely.

The content of the game is totally irrelevant. Nintendo published Fatal Frame 4, which if I recalled the previews correctly deals with locking up young girls on an island. And Killer 7, No More Heroes and RE never had problems being on a Nintendo console.

 

Ugh, this post is almost as bad as his. 

The PS3 just had Valkyria, Disgaea, and Eternal Sonata released.  Two great and one reasonably good (and slightly improved) game.  Valkyria is without question in my mind the best one released so far this gen (and, if you ever get to play it, far better than Fire Emblem). It's ridiculous for you to sit there and defend Fire Emblem sales then say the PS3 can't sell JRPGs, when it's just released two fellow SRPGs, which as you know is not a high selling genre, and Eternal Sonata is incredibly late on the market. 

Disgaea is selling in-line with all previous games in the franchise, and was cheap to make.  Valkyria is selling nearly in-line with Fire Emblem, an already established and well-known franchise, as a new game on the market.

I will bust balls on all sides of an argument.



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Pristine20 on 09 December 2008
BengaBenga said:
Pristine20 said:
BengaBenga said:
Pristine20 said:
BengaBenga said:
Uhm, the combined userbase of the HD consoles isn't even half that of Wii AND the two best sold RPGs so far are on Wii. Plus there are 7 or so in the making, most of them smaller niche titles, but still by talented developers. Niche JRPG fans will be on Wii anyway.
And Koei's Samurai Warriors 3 will be on Wii as well as will Monster Hunter 3, two titles that will drive more Japanese core support.

I really don't think Persona 5 has any chance of seeing a HD release. The series is just too niche for it. PS2 and Wii or just Wii (depending on the sales) would be the option.

@BTFeather: Why on earth would Microsoft want to moneyhat one of the most niche RPGs ever? That's stupid. Ever bothered to look what a MegaTen game usually sells?

Have you played a megaten game? If so, do you really think Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2 and Persona 3 would get away with their content if released on wii? Or Atlus would totally lose creativity to put a game on wii when even nintendo's own fire emblem hasn't performed relative to the userbase.

For a hardcore niche titles, I think figuring out where your fans are is more important than selling to the masses. Which is why I think ps2 is most favored.

However, you seem to have the idea that HD games have to have HD graphics which is what tends to drive up their dev costs. Disgaea 3 says hi! Persona 5 can keep P4 style and be on Ps3, I don't think megaten fans will care. FF fans in comparison care about graphics because the FF series has always prided itself in being some of the best looking games iof thier generation. Megaten? not so much.

I do agree with you that M$ is unlikely to buy this though and I pray with Btfeather that they don't. I think he's just trying to numb himself against the worst case scenario.

 

Yes I have played several MegaTen games. I'm a huge SRPG fan.

Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn sold over 500k (of which 170k in Japan, which is about half Persona 3 on the mighty PS2). I think that's a massive success for a niche genre like that. And Fire Emblem is the core of core in SRPG. I know games on PS360 don't need to be HD, but we all know that a lot of the userbase will ignore a title that looks bad.

Sure the hardcore SMT fan will buy a console for it, but I don't think that group is very big. Next year I expect the Wii to become the JRPG platform of choice, especially for the non-massive series, so SMT would find a nice userbase there AND can basically still sell the same game  on the PS2. I mean console gaming in Japan is basically Wii or PS2.

Your average Gears 2 owner or KZ2 owner isn't who these games are aimed at. Fire emblem had an ace up it's sleeve, even though it's niche, it's published by nintendo. Wii music would tank extra hard if it there was no wii in the title and the same exact game was published by Atari or someone else.

Wii will never be the JRPG console of choice. You also have to understand that a majority of it's owners aren't even contenders for potential buyers of these games because they'll get no hype, promotion or tv advertising whatsoever and these people are mostly casuals so I don't see the wii as the deal breaker. Also, if you played DDS and P3, I personally can't see the wii getting away with a games that have cannibalism and what looks like constant suicide. It just doesn't sit well with the wii they advertise on TV which is an added minus. All the new wii JRPGS fit the family-friendly stereotype while megaten is just on a different level.

In conclusion, JRPG users can't flock to any single console this gen. PS2 will probaly keep its JRPG crown for the whole of this gen. Due to the fact that mostly only hardcore fans of the series would even know P5 release date, I think it'll be ps2 if released in or before 2010 or ps3 if released after 2010. These are my most likely scenarios

I agree there won't be a single JRPG console to own. Untill now it's clearly the 360, but next year there will be a lot of Wii JRPGs. PS3 is kinda sad atm.

Fire Emblem doesn't have any benefit from being published by Nintendo, aside from maybe being available at retailers (which isn't even the case) due to good distribution. There was no advertising for it and it doesn't have any recognizable Nintendo mascots. It simply sold well because, contrary to popular believe, there actually ARE hardcore gamers on the Wii.

A majority of Wii owners are casual so won't buy JRPGs. But the majority of the HD consoles is made up of shooter fans... The PS3 doesn't have a single JRPG seller yet and still you think it's more logical P5 will be on PS3 than on Wii, despite Wii having abou 3x as much consoles in Japan and at least has some evidence it can sell JRPGs. I do agree that a PS2 version is very likely.

The content of the game is totally irrelevant. Nintendo published Fatal Frame 4, which if I recalled the previews correctly deals with locking up young girls on an island. And Killer 7, No More Heroes and RE never had problems being on a Nintendo console.

 

 

I won't argue the case of fire emblem since I've never owned a nintendo console and don't really knoiw anything about it.

HD is most successful in America ATM which is why shooters keep coming whereas most JRPGs start coming after the first FF hits to gauge where the fans are but S-E has been extremely late this time around. 360 and wii might be managing but the backlog of ps2 titles I haven't even played shits on every JRPG they have to offer. This coming from a primarily JRPG only player last gen.

We agree on something, I expect P5 in 2010 so I think it's PS2 anyway.

As for ninendo's image, I  only implied that from the image they paint on TV, mature game purchasers tend not to look to them first for content thus reducing potential sales on the wii. This potential could still possibly be higher that PS3 or 360 but it is reduced nonetheless. Nintendo may publish mature games but they never get any promotion on their console.



"Dr. Tenma, according to you, lives are equal. That's why I live today. But you must have realised it by now...the only thing people are equal in is death"---Johann Liebert (MONSTER)

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives"---Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

BengaBenga on 09 December 2008
naznatips said:
BengaBenga said:

I agree there won't be a single JRPG console to own. Untill now it's clearly the 360, but next year there will be a lot of Wii JRPGs. PS3 is kinda sad atm.

Fire Emblem doesn't have any benefit from being published by Nintendo, aside from maybe being available at retailers (which isn't even the case) due to good distribution. There was no advertising for it and it doesn't have any recognizable Nintendo mascots. It simply sold well because, contrary to popular believe, there actually ARE hardcore gamers on the Wii.

A majority of Wii owners are casual so won't buy JRPGs. But the majority of the HD consoles is made up of shooter fans... The PS3 doesn't have a single JRPG seller yet and still you think it's more logical P5 will be on PS3 than on Wii, despite Wii having abou 3x as much consoles in Japan and at least has some evidence it can sell JRPGs. I do agree that a PS2 version is very likely.

The content of the game is totally irrelevant. Nintendo published Fatal Frame 4, which if I recalled the previews correctly deals with locking up young girls on an island. And Killer 7, No More Heroes and RE never had problems being on a Nintendo console.

 

Ugh, this post is almost as bad as his. 

The PS3 just had Valkyria, Disgaea, and Eternal Sonata released.  Two great and one reasonably good (and slightly improved) game.  Valkyria is without question in my mind the best one released so far this gen (and, if you ever get to play it, far better than Fire Emblem). It's ridiculous for you to sit there and defend Fire Emblem sales then say the PS3 can't sell JRPGs, when it's just released two fellow SRPGs, which as you know is not a high selling genre, and Eternal Sonata is incredibly late on the market. 

Disgaea is selling in-line with all previous games in the franchise, and was cheap to make.  Valkyria is selling nearly in-line with Fire Emblem, an already established and well-known franchise, as a new game on the market.

I will bust balls on all sides of an argument.

Oh, I agree that Valkyria is probably an amazing game. I'd love to play it. But the JRPG situation on PS3 is nevertheless about as bad as the Wii one, with that difference that Wii has a number of announced titles for next year, while PS3 will likely mainly have WKC (in the West that is). So yeah: I think the JRPG situation is bad on PS3 AND Wii. I specifically wrote atm, everything can change.

As for sales: Valkyria selling almost in line with Fire Emblem is definitely good (but the difference in cost between the two is staggering). I was mainly talking about Dragon Quest Swords and Tales of Symphonia 2 though, when I said Wii has SOME evidence it can sell RPGs. I mainly talked about FE to show that there is a fanbase for niche titles on Wii.

 

 

 



Pristine20 on 09 December 2008
naznatips said:
Pristine20 said:

Your average Gears 2 owner or KZ2 owner isn't who these games are aimed at. Fire emblem had an ace up it's sleeve, even though it's niche, it's published by nintendo. Wii music would tank extra hard if it there was no wii in the title and the same exact game was published by Atari or someone else.

Wii will never be the JRPG console of choice. You also have to understand that a majority of it's owners aren't even contenders for potential buyers of these games because they'll get no hype, promotion or tv advertising whatsoever and these people are mostly casuals so I don't see the wii as the deal breaker. Also, if you played DDS and P3, I personally can't see the wii getting away with a games that have cannibalism and what looks like constant suicide. It just doesn't sit well with the wii they advertise on TV which is an added minus. All the new wii JRPGS fit the family-friendly stereotype while megaten is just on a different level.

In conclusion, JRPG users can't flock to any single console this gen. PS2 will probaly keep its JRPG crown for the whole of this gen. Due to the fact that mostly only hardcore fans of the series would even know P5 release date, I think it'll be ps2 if released in or before 2010 or ps3 if released after 2010. These are my most likely scenarios

 

This post is full of an unacceptable amount of ignorance.  Nintendo has done nothing to limit content on Wii games past those that are rated AO by the ESRB (Which neither Sony nor Microsoft allow).  Manhunt 2, No More Heroes, and MadWorld are incredibly graphic.  Far more than any Persona game has ever been.

As for audience, the Wii has sold far better in JRPGs in Japan than the PS3 or 360.  Dragon Quest Swords is more than double the highest selling PS3 or 360 RPG in Japan, and the Tales spinoff outsold the new main game on 360.  Probably for a small fraction of the dev costs. 

As for actual RPG offerings on the platform, you should be paying a lot more attention to the Wii if you are an RPG fan, as it's got much more coming for it than the PS3 or 360 in the genre.  Not as many big names, to be sure, but as a Persona fan that should hardly matter to you at all. What matters is the quality, and as you should know, the little-known names are often the best.

Some games you should be looking at:

Arc Rise Fantasia
Fragile: Farewell Ruins of the Moon
Muramasa: The Demon Blade
Rune Factory: Frontier
Golden Bonds

Please, don't use DQ:swords as your example. DQ anything will sell well even on iphone in Japan. DQ:swords is not even a JRPG. Just a very bad game that's named dragon quest. You think that proves anything about the acceptance of P5 on wii?

I admit, I haven't paid attention to the wii's JRPG potential at all because I've never considered buying a nintendo console for some reason. The last one I wanted was the snes but my parents refused to buy it since they decided what I got back then.

I'll see howthose games you mention turn out but most of them look like new IPs and something like P5 strikes me as more dependent on previous purchasers than those games listed. Persona hasn't seen a release outside the PS family of consoles. For a series without the mass media exposure it isn't as easy to bow out like FFXIII. They'll have to consider where their fans are. The fact that the spend more time sending us mail with various information than doing any promotion speaks volumes about their priorities. This is why when all the dust is settled, I think P5 would be on ps2 anyway.

 



"Dr. Tenma, according to you, lives are equal. That's why I live today. But you must have realised it by now...the only thing people are equal in is death"---Johann Liebert (MONSTER)

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives"---Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

Pristine20 on 09 December 2008

I haven't gotten around to buying VC yet because the only game I bought this fall was R2 due to peer pressure while VC is more my leave-me-alone type game like P4. It does look very good but as a hardcore megaten fan, I'll have to be done with P4 first.



"Dr. Tenma, according to you, lives are equal. That's why I live today. But you must have realised it by now...the only thing people are equal in is death"---Johann Liebert (MONSTER)

"WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives"---Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler

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naznatips on 09 December 2008
BengaBenga said:
naznatips said:
BengaBenga said:

I agree there won't be a single JRPG console to own. Untill now it's clearly the 360, but next year there will be a lot of Wii JRPGs. PS3 is kinda sad atm.

Fire Emblem doesn't have any benefit from being published by Nintendo, aside from maybe being available at retailers (which isn't even the case) due to good distribution. There was no advertising for it and it doesn't have any recognizable Nintendo mascots. It simply sold well because, contrary to popular believe, there actually ARE hardcore gamers on the Wii.

A majority of Wii owners are casual so won't buy JRPGs. But the majority of the HD consoles is made up of shooter fans... The PS3 doesn't have a single JRPG seller yet and still you think it's more logical P5 will be on PS3 than on Wii, despite Wii having abou 3x as much consoles in Japan and at least has some evidence it can sell JRPGs. I do agree that a PS2 version is very likely.

The content of the game is totally irrelevant. Nintendo published Fatal Frame 4, which if I recalled the previews correctly deals with locking up young girls on an island. And Killer 7, No More Heroes and RE never had problems being on a Nintendo console.

 

Ugh, this post is almost as bad as his. 

The PS3 just had Valkyria, Disgaea, and Eternal Sonata released.  Two great and one reasonably good (and slightly improved) game.  Valkyria is without question in my mind the best one released so far this gen (and, if you ever get to play it, far better than Fire Emblem). It's ridiculous for you to sit there and defend Fire Emblem sales then say the PS3 can't sell JRPGs, when it's just released two fellow SRPGs, which as you know is not a high selling genre, and Eternal Sonata is incredibly late on the market. 

Disgaea is selling in-line with all previous games in the franchise, and was cheap to make.  Valkyria is selling nearly in-line with Fire Emblem, an already established and well-known franchise, as a new game on the market.

I will bust balls on all sides of an argument.

Oh, I agree that Valkyria is probably an amazing game. I'd love to play it. But the JRPG situation on PS3 is nevertheless about as bad as the Wii one, with that difference that Wii has a number of announced titles for next year, while PS3 will likely mainly have WKC (in the West that is). So yeah: I think the JRPG situation is bad on PS3 AND Wii. I specifically wrote atm, everything can change.

As for sales: Valkyria selling almost in line with Fire Emblem is definitely good (but the difference in cost between the two is staggering). I was mainly talking about Dragon Quest Swords and Tales of Symphonia 2 though, when I said Wii has SOME evidence it can sell RPGs. I mainly talked about FE to show that there is a fanbase for niche titles on Wii.

 

The difference in cost is not "staggering."  It's certainly a difference, maybe a fairly large difference since FE was built on the Gamecube engine, but it's not what you make it out to be.  Valkyria Chronicles only had a 2 year dev cycle.  That's not big at all, even for a Wii game... and from a technical standpoint the game is hardly impressive.  It stands out because of its art style.  It also uses a minimalist approach to design.  There are no massive open worlds nor dozens of CGI cutscenes.  Outside of combat all you have are the menus that you use to navigate the town and buy/upgrade/recruit/train/etc. 

It was not an expensive game by any means.



BTFeather55 on 09 December 2008
BengaBenga said:
superbeast1370 said:
why the hell should they put it on the wii or 360? Persona started on PlayStation.

 

 

Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest started on the NES.

 

      Megaten 1 and 2 were on NES too.  Then they were remade on SNES.



Heavens to Murgatoids.

Simulacrum on 09 December 2008

Come on,get a room.



 

 

Take my love, take my land..

naznatips on 09 December 2008

Btw, aside from wanting more FPS games that use Wii controls I don't really care at all where games are released, since I own everything. I just care about the games themselves. I, however, don't like misleading general statements about any console.



outlawauron on 09 December 2008
Pristine20 said:
Xen said:
scottie said:
Wow, that's pretty damn impressive. As with all games, average probably will drop over time. Will stay in the mid 90's though

Is this game coming to Wii? or is that something else I'm thinking of?

Didn't hear anything about it...

I assume the next one does, though.

 

Honestly, I won't be surprised if persona 5 comes to ps2 or even ps3 if it comes late enough when the nex-gen is looming because these type of games are the hardest of the hardcore. They don't get any promotion whatsoever and only their hardcore followers know they exist.In such, userbase doesn't affect sales as much as wherethe fanbase is because they don't really have the hype and media talk driving their sales.

Disgaea 3 is a good example. It's on par with the previous iterations even though it was released on almost a 10X smaller userbase. Big games benefit from userbase much more that hardcore niche titles. Fire emblem for the wii could be another example. I remember I didn't even know it was released yet for wii till someone corrected me. Nintendo sure doesn't advertise it like wii fit.

That said, how many know that Ar Tonelico 2 is coming to the States Jan 30, 2009? I bet not many knew or even care.

I care!

@ Benga

And I really reccomend you find a way to play Valkyria Chronicles!



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

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