Yeah, the Starship Troopers part I wasn't really responding to. It certainly isn't a highly sophisticated piece, but I understood its allegorical denouncement of Communism.

And I also agree that Bioshock's story wasn't mind numbingly stupid (which, in honesty, is how I would describe the story arch of the MGS series), I just wouldn't give it "work of art" or "mature" status.

Let's cut this part of the conversation short though, Kuutra, I really don't want to bog the thread down with list wars or "this counts" or "that doesn't count" arguments.

Yessir.

I think maturity is about a game being comfortable in its own space - it has more to do with the creative maturity of the designer and their own ability to utilize and manipulate how people approach the medium. The Metal Gear Solid series in this sense is not "mature" because Kojima's still kind of hamfisted about how he approaches the medium, whereas Fumito Ueda is a very mature designer because he knows how to do things with games that one could not do with film or literature.

Hey, I'm not bashing Starship Troopers. I enjoy the film and its over-the-top satire. I'm just pointing out that it's not very sophisticated. It takes a few jabs at politics, the military, etc but it's not terribly well done overall.

You would be surprised how many people miss the fact that it's satire

It always bugs me when people are like "That movie was a bad action movie and I bet the book was shitty in just the same way"

True. It's sad how so many think the movie takes itself seriously.

And the book and movie are nearly unrelated past the title.

Ironically according to my definition Starship Troopers would be a fairly mature video game.

It all comes full circle.

In more skilled hands than Verhooven (sp?), I might agree. Far too heavy-handed for my tastes, but that's just me.

Verhoeven's a peach, but no, I wouldn't give it to him. He's not what I would call an especially mature filmmaker, much less having what it takes to make games.

Of course the sequels would still be terrible.

But I think part of what defines mature games is that they need to be games, and games primarily. Not films! Films are not what we want here. You want to make films, you go to Hollywood.

Maybe it's off topic but what is gamer obssession with the whole "mature" thing exacly? I mean, do the normal person care if the movie they watch is "mature"? Considering Adam Sandler sucess, i'll go with a big fat no, so why game? I understand that the gaming demographic are mainly male kid and young adult, an age where one is more concerned about the subject (it go for female as well) but it seem even older gamer care about the subject.

Why? I mean, after a certain one stop being concerned about "being mature", which is actually a good barometer, if you stop thingking about the subject you are either in fact mature or have not yet hit puberty, so why do they care if this particular game is or not? Matury isn't based on what game you play but in the responsablity one have, and take care of, in his life, not what one do to distract himself when he get a few hour of free time. I mean, would you consider a father playing a children game with is son immature?

"Mature" in this case does not necessarily mean "adult" or "pandering to the taste of adults". It can also mean a piece of media that is fully realized as a form of expression, which has come into its own regardless of its subject matter.