So how do you argue the cost of an engine that's been used in dozens of other games? UE3 wasn't made for Gears. Gears was made for UE3. Guerrilla Games and Konami could of used other engines, but didn't either due to the fact the PS3 wasn't going to work well with it, or decided to use it to make the 'best' game.

Again, is that Epics fault for the cheap budget, or theirs? If you want, feel free to add $1m to the budget of both Gears' games since that's what it costs to license the engine.

I'm not saying you should add anything to the cost of Gears' budget.  I'm just saying it's an unfair comparison, as Gears of War started development on a just about completed engine, while Kojima Productions and Geurrilla Games were building their first ps3 engines from scratch through the development of MGS4 and Killzone 2.

So when we talk development budgets, it's only fair to compare games that use absolutely no middleware, and everything is built from scratch?

To me, developing an engine from scratch or not doesn't really matter if it's done right. We're here arguing that a game made with a middleware engine, made for a fraction of the cost, is as good or better than a game using hundreds of developers over multiple years, using a engine developed specifically for one system, and one system only.

Doesn't that sound a little.........Telling...Of what the Playstation 3 is?

I was referring to the co-processor. As far as I can remember, that was the issue with the PS2 being more difficult to develop versus the GC or Xbox.

How many studios make their own proprietary engines, ps3 or not?  Not EVERYONE has to use middleware, and many outright prefer not to, but all developers do need a new engine for the current gen, and it has to come from somewhere.

Now that Kojima Productions and Geurrilla Games have completed their engines, how much will their next titles for this generation cost?  Much less than their first, as - much like with Gears of War - they'll be using an already completed engine.  Creating an engine for the next generation is an investment, an invesment that has to be made somewhere.

And UE3 isn't middleware for Epic, as they developed it themselves.  I'm sure the engine cost millions of dollars and took quite a few years to originally develop for PC.

Btw, much of the technology researched for Killzone 2 is being worked into Sony titles by other internal developers, somewhat similar to how UE3 has been licensed out by Epic, thus further decreasing costs for those titles.