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Forums - PC - OK you PC guys, I just don't get why mouse/keyboard FPS is such a big deal.

Grey Acumen said:
1)Except they only fall into those categories of towards/away and parallel BECAUSE the FPS that use Keyboards are limited to that. If you could use an analog stick, you could move and aim entirely independently of each other. Just like I can walk in one direction and look in another direction. Playing FPS on a keyboard and mouse setup is like going to war with your spine fused.

2) Ultimately, all of you still fail to address the issue of Analog/joystick vs KEYBOARD by CONTINUING to bring the mouse back into this.

and there are games that allow you to do mouse + controller. Thief 3 did it awesomely, though it wasn't as big of an issue since you could optionally switch to 3rd person, and didn't have that much fast paced shooting. Psychonauts and Tomb Raider Anniversary also allowed this, but again, they were 3rd person. It's not like PC games CAN'T incorporate them, they just never seem to do so successfully.

heck, Half life and Portal SPECIFICALLY have a feature that is supposed to let you use joysticks or something, but no matter what settings I use around that option, it refuses to register the controller I'm using.

 

1) In an FPS you're either jousting an opponent or you're looking for an opponent/powerup. Jousting requries all forms of movement but mostly parallel and looking for an opponent/powerup requires mostly forward/backward movement.  We can also throw in jumping if you'd like but it has no bearing really.  Beyond that, any fine movements required are also directly associated with aiming and thus are best handled by the aiming portion system (ie the mouse).

The thing you're missing is that an independant setup for movement and aiming is actually undesirable.  It is a big reason why dual analog aim is so fidgety and unruly in the first place. Leaving the two independent means they are unrelated and it is left to the player to predict how their analogue movement is going to effect their aim.  Conversely WASD movement has uniform movements that require no guesswork as to how they will effect your aim. The upshot of this is that all fine adjustments are focused onto a single input and thus the player is able to focus on a single input rather than mentally divining the combined effect of two complex inputs.  And of course the mouse being the immensly accurate input device that it is, shines in this role.

2) You're missing the point entirely here.  The fact that the keyboard movement is so dependent on the mouse means you cannot seperate the two in a discussion, they are directly related. The strength of one is the weakness of the other by design, it's a system of control, the keyboard by itself is meaningless to discuss.  It would be like asking someone to focus a microscope on a slide but demanding they do it with the coarse adjustment knob only.

 

 



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Griffin said:
Reasonable said:
With K&M you can whip around 180 like a real person and shoot the person running up to shoot you in the back... whereas with stick you sloooowllllyyyy turn while being shot.

Also I note the lack of aim assist with K&M while it is prevalent on consoles... I wonder why?

And in FPS accuracy sure counts for a lot more than movement anyway...

Maybe you should raise the aiming speed above 1 if you are finding it slow to turn around.  And any good players who play FPS on consoles always turn off sticky aim if there is an option, and most people hate it, it makes bad players better and makes good players worse.  And most people have good accuracy on console shooters, so thats not a problem.

 

 

Even with sensitivity adjusted I just don't get the same speed on console as PC.  As for autoaim my point is the need to include it for those who can't aim.  And yes most players aim fine... just not as good as they would on a K&M...

 



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

Vertigo-X said:
Grey Acumen said:
Except they only fall into those categories of towards/away and parallel BECAUSE the FPS that use Keyboards are limited to that. If you could use an analog stick, you could move and aim entirely independently of each other. Just like I can walk in one direction and look in another direction. Playing FPS on a keyboard and mouse setup is like going to war with your spine fused.

Ultimately, all of you still fail to address the issue of Analog/joystick vs KEYBOARD by CONTINUING to bring the mouse back into this.

and there are games that allow you to do mouse + controller. Thief 3 did it awesomely, though it wasn't as big of an issue since you could optionally switch to 3rd person, and didn't have that much fast paced shooting. Psychonauts and Tomb Raider Anniversary also allowed this, but again, they were 3rd person. It's not like PC games CAN'T incorporate them, they just never seem to do so successfully.

heck, Half life and Portal SPECIFICALLY have a feature that is supposed to let you use joysticks or something, but no matter what settings I use around that option, it refuses to register the controller I'm using.

 

Grey Acumen, you need to calm the fuck down. Plenty of people have admitted already that alone, the keyboard is easily flawed in terms of movement. The point is that with the mouse it gets raised above the dual analog setup.

 

I agree with you, though, about using an analog stick with a mouse; that would be sweet and much better than using a keyboard/mouse combo. :)

I tried that and it didn't end well. I bought Split Fish's PS2 analog stick/mouse controller and got my money back in an hour. I don't know how much better their PS3 one is, but I wouldn't want to shell out for it.

I don't understand the argument of how bad keyboards are compared to analog sticks other than how you can move the sticks in a certain direction and you can move it slightly or all the way. Pretty much only game where I've had to really worry about the speed of which I'm moving would be Counter-Strike where your footsteps are part of the gameplay (though you can also move around crouched to not make noise too).

Like others are saying, movement is related to aiming when it comes to keyboards and mice. Half-Life based games are a really great example if you've ever played on a surf map or any kind of low gravity server. Saying an analog stick is better than a keyboard is pointless to me if I can't aim with a mouse.

 



I don't play FPS but I've been playing Fable on PC and I HATE keyboard controls but I love aiming with the mouse. It's so precise but keyboard is so lame to walk and such and it clearly wasn't made for gaming.

That's why I mapped the controls on my PC controller... I don't use bow & arrows that much but when I do I use the mouse. I think it's much better that way.



lolita said:
I don't play FPS but I've been playing Fable on PC and I HATE keyboard controls but I love aiming with the mouse. It's so precise but keyboard is so lame to walk and such and it clearly wasn't made for gaming.

 

I've never played Fable on the PC so I can't really agree/disagree with what you said.

 

However, how about the bolded becomes 'certain types of games'?

 



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IllegalPaladin said:
lolita said:
I don't play FPS but I've been playing Fable on PC and I HATE keyboard controls but I love aiming with the mouse. It's so precise but keyboard is so lame to walk and such and it clearly wasn't made for gaming.

 

I've never played Fable on the PC so I can't really agree/disagree with what you said.

 

However, how about the bolded becomes 'certain types of games'?

 

 

I've also played other games with the keyboard and I always hated it. I guess I'm just too used to controllers. I dunno it feels more precise than arrows plus it's more comfortable. Keyboard controls feels either too stiff or just over do it (turn too much in the case of Fable). The only game I think keyboard is better for, is Sims, and you mostly use the mouse in this game.

Like I said, I don't play with FPS but I can't imagine how it's any different.



lolita said:
IllegalPaladin said:
lolita said:
I don't play FPS but I've been playing Fable on PC and I HATE keyboard controls but I love aiming with the mouse. It's so precise but keyboard is so lame to walk and such and it clearly wasn't made for gaming.

 

I've never played Fable on the PC so I can't really agree/disagree with what you said.

 

However, how about the bolded becomes 'certain types of games'?

 

 

I've also played other games with the keyboard and I always hated it. I guess I'm just too used to controllers. I dunno it feels more precise than arrows plus it's more comfortable. Keyboard controls feels either too stiff or just over do it (turn too much in the case of Fable). The only game I think keyboard is better for, is Sims, and you mostly use the mouse in this game.

Like I said, I don't play with FPS but I can't imagine how it's any different.

 

I'm comfortable with a controller and keyboard and going back and forth doesn't bother me at all (though not having a mouse is an annoyance in console FPS games). Maybe it's a matter of people are imtimidated with the keyboard as a game input device? Perhaps that could be the case, but the game I played most on our old Windows 98 PC was Freespace and Flight Simulator 98, which use practically all the buttons so I got used to it pretty quickly. That's not even counting Half-Life, which I recieved soon after.



Someday, we'll have something close to VR. On that day, you will no longer be able to "whip around 180...and shoot the person running up to shoot you in the back" because a "real person" doesn't usually have the kind of speed or accuracy. In VR, your aiming will suck, because you've spent hours of practicing pointing and clicking, which will no longer apply.

When it happens, PC users will whine about how their accuracy in VR isn't as good as with a keyboard and mouse. (Actually, you can already hear things like that about some Wii controls.) Pointing and clicking might technically be a "skill," but it's not one to be particularly proud of: it's a place-holder for better, more-intuitive controls to come, and some that can actually already be found on other platforms.



IllegalPaladin said:

 

I'm comfortable with a controller and keyboard and going back and forth doesn't bother me at all (though not having a mouse is an annoyance in console FPS games). Maybe it's a matter of people are imtimidated with the keyboard as a game input device? Perhaps that could be the case, but the game I played most on our old Windows 98 PC was Freespace and Flight Simulator 98, which use practically all the buttons so I got used to it pretty quickly. That's not even counting Half-Life, which I recieved soon after.

 

My fingers and wrists hurt when I play with keyboard after about 45 minutes... I can play many hours with a controller without having any pain... Dunno, it's way more comfortable.

I'm not saying it doesn't work for some people but I personally can't stand it.



lolita said:
IllegalPaladin said:

 

I'm comfortable with a controller and keyboard and going back and forth doesn't bother me at all (though not having a mouse is an annoyance in console FPS games). Maybe it's a matter of people are imtimidated with the keyboard as a game input device? Perhaps that could be the case, but the game I played most on our old Windows 98 PC was Freespace and Flight Simulator 98, which use practically all the buttons so I got used to it pretty quickly. That's not even counting Half-Life, which I recieved soon after.

 

My fingers and wrists hurt when I play with keyboard after about 45 minutes... I can play many hours with a controller without having any pain... Dunno, it's way more comfortable.

I'm not saying it doesn't work for some people but I personally can't stand it.

 

I understand and it hurts my wrists too, but I'll keep going if I'm having fun. I'll just slap on some pain relieving cream and keep on going.