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Forums - General - Russia Already Violating Truce

Georgia attacked first, end of discussion. Unfortunately there is more propaganda in our Western media than in freakin China. By the way check out the Reuters timeline and the bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSHO05105720080810?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

Oh and another great site is www.prisonplanet.com



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

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Legend11 said:
http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/382744

"The war in South Ossetia is essentially over, and the Georgians have lost. This was Georgia's second attempt in eighteen years to conquer the breakaway territory by force, and now that option is gone for good. So are the country's hopes of joining NATO. Yet sections of the Western media are carrying on as if the Russians started it, and are now threatening to invade Georgia itself.

Meanwhile, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital." Nonsense. It was Georgia that started this war.

The chronology tells it all. Skirmishes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian militia grew more frequent over the past several months, but on Thursday, August 7, Saakashvili offered the separatist South Ossetian government "an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks," promising that "full autonomy" was on the table. Only hours later, however, he ordered a general offensive.

South Ossetia's president, Eduard Kokoity, called Saakashvili's ceasefire offer a "despicable and treacherous" ruse, which seems fair enough. Through all of Thursday night and Friday morning Georgian artillery shells and rockets rained down on the little city of Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's capital, while Georgian infantry and tanks encircled it. Russian journalists reported that 70 percent of the city was destroyed, and by Friday afternoon it was in Georgian hands.

The offensive was obviously planned well in advance, but Saakashvili didn't think it through. He knew that the world's attention would be distracted by the Olympics, and he hoped that Russia's reaction would be slow because Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was off in Beijing.

Given three or four days to establish full military control of South Ossetia, he could put a pro-Georgian administration in place and declare the problem solved. But his calculations were wrong.

There was no delay in the Russian response. A large Russian force was on its way from North Ossetia (which is part of the Russian Federation) by mid-day on Friday, and Russian jets began striking targets inside Georgia proper. By the time Vladimir Putin reached the North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz on Saturday morning, the Georgian forces were already being driven out of Tskhinvali again.

By Saturday evening, Georgia was calling for a ceasefire and declaring that all its troops were being withdrawn from South Ossetia to prevent a "humanitarian catastrophe." Saakashvili's gamble had failed - and, as Putin put it, the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow".

Not just South Ossetia has been lost for good. Georgia's hope of ever recovering its other breakaway province, Abkhazia, has also evaporated. On Saturday, the Abkhazian government announced a military offensive to drive Georgian troops out of the Kodori gorge, the last bit of Abkhazian territory that they control. How much does all of this matter?

It matters a lot to the 300,000 Georgians who fled from Abkhazia and South Ossetia when the two ethnic enclaves, which were autonomous parts of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in Soviet times, declared their independence after the old Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Georgia's attempts to reconquer them in 1992-93 were bloody failures, and after this second failure it is clear that the Georgian refugees will never go home.

It is a reason to rejoice for most Abkhazians and South Ossetians.

Although they are Orthodox Christians like the far more numerous Georgians, they are ethnically distinct peoples with different languages, and they always resented Stalin's decision to place them under Georgian rule.

Whether they ultimately get full independence or simply join the Russian Federation, they will be happy with the outcome.

The Bush administration's bizarre ambition to extend NATO into the Caucasus mountains is dead. Russians are pleased with the speed and effectiveness of their government's response. And nobody else really cares.

There is no great moral issue here. What Georgia tried to do to South Ossetia is precisely what Russia did to Chechnya, but Georgia wasn't strong enough and South Ossetia had a bigger friend. There is no great strategic issue either: apart from a few pipeline routes, the whole Transcaucasus is of little importance to the rest of the world. A year from now the Georgians will probably have dumped Saakashvili, and the rest of us may not even remember his foolish adventure.

Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist. His column appears each Wednesday."

+ to Nirvana:

Georgia did not attack, they performed actions within their own territory. Seriously, according to international mandate S. Ossetia is still part of Georgia and if militias are riling up within a country's own borders you should at least try and end it. The Gerogian act of declaring truce first but then attacking is vile but at least it was within it's own borders.

For instance if we look at the conflict the Turks have with the Kurds, we do not see the whole world rile up when both sides fight in the Eastern provinces of Turkey.

What did cause a minor shitstorm was when Turkish patrols crossed the border into Iraq to take out insurgents. The Kurdish PKK is on an international list of terrorist organizations and the world thus favors the Turkish military in this conflict, but that didn't stop the critque Turkey got when they went into Iraqian territory.

What Russia did was far worse. They not only got involved in disputed Georgian territory to aid militia's... militia's for crying out loud! But they then proceded to cross further upto a few miles of the Georgian capitol of Tblisi. They call it a buffer zone, I think it's occupation. How do you think the Russians saw the Barbarossa operation of Germany in 1941 when they got into 60 miles of Moskou. Do you think that was a buffer zone?!

Furthermore, the blatant lying about targets being attacked by Russia caused not only unnecessary civilian casualty's (of which Georgia is guilty aswell I know) but also killed members of the international press. Both sides are guilty...

But one is a lot more guilty of acts of war then the other.

 



The Doctor will see you now  Promoting Lesbianism -->

                              

Legend11 said:
http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/382744

"The war in South Ossetia is essentially over, and the Georgians have lost. This was Georgia's second attempt in eighteen years to conquer the breakaway territory by force, and now that option is gone for good. So are the country's hopes of joining NATO. Yet sections of the Western media are carrying on as if the Russians started it, and are now threatening to invade Georgia itself.

Meanwhile, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital." Nonsense. It was Georgia that started this war.

The chronology tells it all. Skirmishes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian militia grew more frequent over the past several months, but on Thursday, August 7, Saakashvili offered the separatist South Ossetian government "an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks," promising that "full autonomy" was on the table. Only hours later, however, he ordered a general offensive.

South Ossetia's president, Eduard Kokoity, called Saakashvili's ceasefire offer a "despicable and treacherous" ruse, which seems fair enough. Through all of Thursday night and Friday morning Georgian artillery shells and rockets rained down on the little city of Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's capital, while Georgian infantry and tanks encircled it. Russian journalists reported that 70 percent of the city was destroyed, and by Friday afternoon it was in Georgian hands.

The offensive was obviously planned well in advance, but Saakashvili didn't think it through. He knew that the world's attention would be distracted by the Olympics, and he hoped that Russia's reaction would be slow because Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was off in Beijing.

Given three or four days to establish full military control of South Ossetia, he could put a pro-Georgian administration in place and declare the problem solved. But his calculations were wrong.

There was no delay in the Russian response. A large Russian force was on its way from North Ossetia (which is part of the Russian Federation) by mid-day on Friday, and Russian jets began striking targets inside Georgia proper. By the time Vladimir Putin reached the North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz on Saturday morning, the Georgian forces were already being driven out of Tskhinvali again.

By Saturday evening, Georgia was calling for a ceasefire and declaring that all its troops were being withdrawn from South Ossetia to prevent a "humanitarian catastrophe." Saakashvili's gamble had failed - and, as Putin put it, the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow".

Not just South Ossetia has been lost for good. Georgia's hope of ever recovering its other breakaway province, Abkhazia, has also evaporated. On Saturday, the Abkhazian government announced a military offensive to drive Georgian troops out of the Kodori gorge, the last bit of Abkhazian territory that they control. How much does all of this matter?

It matters a lot to the 300,000 Georgians who fled from Abkhazia and South Ossetia when the two ethnic enclaves, which were autonomous parts of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in Soviet times, declared their independence after the old Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Georgia's attempts to reconquer them in 1992-93 were bloody failures, and after this second failure it is clear that the Georgian refugees will never go home.

It is a reason to rejoice for most Abkhazians and South Ossetians.

Although they are Orthodox Christians like the far more numerous Georgians, they are ethnically distinct peoples with different languages, and they always resented Stalin's decision to place them under Georgian rule.

Whether they ultimately get full independence or simply join the Russian Federation, they will be happy with the outcome.

The Bush administration's bizarre ambition to extend NATO into the Caucasus mountains is dead. Russians are pleased with the speed and effectiveness of their government's response. And nobody else really cares.

There is no great moral issue here. What Georgia tried to do to South Ossetia is precisely what Russia did to Chechnya, but Georgia wasn't strong enough and South Ossetia had a bigger friend. There is no great strategic issue either: apart from a few pipeline routes, the whole Transcaucasus is of little importance to the rest of the world. A year from now the Georgians will probably have dumped Saakashvili, and the rest of us may not even remember his foolish adventure.

Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist. His column appears each Wednesday."

+ to Nirvana:

Georgia did not attack, they performed actions within their own territory. Seriously, according to international mandate S. Ossetia is still part of Georgia and if militias are riling up within a country's own borders you should at least try and end it. The Gerogian act of declaring truce first but then attacking is vile but at least it was within it's own borders.

For instance if we look at the conflict the Turks have with the Kurds, we do not see the whole world rile up when both sides fight in the Eastern provinces of Turkey.

What did cause a minor shitstorm was when Turkish patrols crossed the border into Iraq to take out insurgents. The Kurdish PKK is on an international list of terrorist organizations and the world thus favors the Turkish military in this conflict, but that didn't stop the critque Turkey got when they went into Iraqian territory.

What Russia did was far worse. They not only got involved in disputed Georgian territory to aid militia's... militia's for crying out loud! But they then proceded to cross further upto a few miles of the Georgian capitol of Tblisi. They call it a buffer zone, I think it's occupation. How do you think the Russians saw the Barbarossa operation of Germany in 1941 when they got into 60 miles of Moskou. Do you think that was a buffer zone?!

Furthermore, the blatant lying about targets being attacked by Russia caused not only unnecessary civilian casualty's (of which Georgia is guilty aswell I know) but also killed members of the international press. Both sides are guilty...

But one is a lot more guilty of acts of war then the other.

 



The Doctor will see you now  Promoting Lesbianism -->

                              

I don't get the "Stalin's decision" comment

South Ossetia was part of georgia before it was annexed by Russia in the first place.

Furthermore USSR made it it's own autonomious government more or less.

Really the Georgians and South Ossetians lived together without conflict until the Russian's riled up the area for their own ambitions the first time and it's continued as such.



Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
Frodaddyg said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Why would these countries lie and say their crimes were worse then they were?

 

Maybe they were innovators in the field of e-peen? Maybe doubling the numbers of your historic mass murder may be the equivalent of like a 50 kill streak in Counterstrike.

Also, the fact that one side in this discussion has announced that "partial genocide" can be considered a necessary action definitely shows that their morals are in order.

 

Like it or not partial or full genocide is part of our history and will be, and it was used as a problem resolver since humanity existed. The Egyptians, Romanas, Russians, Americans all used it... so yeah It can be used and considered as a solution. I dont say that I like it, but this is the real world...

Scientists also used to believe that rats were born from piles of dirty clothes and leftover food.

I would like to think that, as a people, we have moved past that point.

 

You do that. Just stay in your nice little clean apartment and neglect the things that happen in this world. It seems that 2/3 of humanity havent passed this phase yet, but thank god that you dont have to worry about the countless genocides that happen in in Africa on a daily basis or the millions of hungry kids who live in Etyopia.

Just because you dont see it it doesnt means that its not happening...

 

I never said it wasn't happening. The difference between me and you is that you seem to think that it's okay.

I don't.

 

I dont say its right, I just say that its a viable option, and seeing how many times it still happens, I would say many, many more do feel the same ;)

 

So you don't think it's right... but you think it's acceptable.

 

Exactly... just like cigares for instance.... they kill more people in a year then how many Osetian citizens will be killed in this entire war. But we accept it because in the same time millions wil benefit from its calming results ( the cigares, not the wars :P ).

 

That's a pretty sick way of thinking. You know WW2 basically got the world out of the great depression.

There is never a justification for genocide.

 

Thank god for democracy, for letting me voice my opinion... right? But as you mentioned above, we have different opinions, and while you say that genocide has no justification, I bealive otherwise, so I seriously se no reason for continuing this debate...


Yeah... thank god most peopel don't agree as well. Jeez genocide has justification... that's just.. sociopathic.

Like seriously... you should see a trained psychologist... that's just not healthy.

 

 

First of all both my mother and older sister are psychologists... and for your little pitty knowledge, sociopathisms are treated treated by psychiatrists and not sinmple shrinks ;) And how dare you judge me when your entire cultural and educational background was different... thats the problem with western people. They think that they are the only ones who know the truth and they are always right...

epsilon: afther the instauration of Comunism in Romania ( 1948 ) everything was taken from my family, including house, land, money. All that we got was a flat, in wich I still live, so dont talk to me like I wouldent know what happened before it, my grandparents and parents remind it to me on an almost daily basis...



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

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Russia "One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity..."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia5

Now it seems Russia and US are in a war of words about items Russia already agreed to and is now backing out.

I still think NATO should just move in. If we didn't put people on the ground in Russia, I don't think it would turn Nuclear.



How about eveyone stays out, and lets those 2 countries sort things out them selvs?!?!



hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
Frodaddyg said:
Kasz216 said:

Why would these countries lie and say their crimes were worse then they were?

 

Maybe they were innovators in the field of e-peen? Maybe doubling the numbers of your historic mass murder may be the equivalent of like a 50 kill streak in Counterstrike.

Also, the fact that one side in this discussion has announced that "partial genocide" can be considered a necessary action definitely shows that their morals are in order.

 

Like it or not partial or full genocide is part of our history and will be, and it was used as a problem resolver since humanity existed. The Egyptians, Romanas, Russians, Americans all used it... so yeah It can be used and considered as a solution. I dont say that I like it, but this is the real world...

Scientists also used to believe that rats were born from piles of dirty clothes and leftover food.

I would like to think that, as a people, we have moved past that point.

 

You do that. Just stay in your nice little clean apartment and neglect the things that happen in this world. It seems that 2/3 of humanity havent passed this phase yet, but thank god that you dont have to worry about the countless genocides that happen in in Africa on a daily basis or the millions of hungry kids who live in Etyopia.

Just because you dont see it it doesnt means that its not happening...

 

I never said it wasn't happening. The difference between me and you is that you seem to think that it's okay.

I don't.

 

I dont say its right, I just say that its a viable option, and seeing how many times it still happens, I would say many, many more do feel the same ;)

 

So you don't think it's right... but you think it's acceptable.

 

Exactly... just like cigares for instance.... they kill more people in a year then how many Osetian citizens will be killed in this entire war. But we accept it because in the same time millions wil benefit from its calming results ( the cigares, not the wars :P ).

 

That's a pretty sick way of thinking. You know WW2 basically got the world out of the great depression.

There is never a justification for genocide.

 

Thank god for democracy, for letting me voice my opinion... right? But as you mentioned above, we have different opinions, and while you say that genocide has no justification, I bealive otherwise, so I seriously se no reason for continuing this debate...


Yeah... thank god most peopel don't agree as well. Jeez genocide has justification... that's just.. sociopathic.

Like seriously... you should see a trained psychologist... that's just not healthy.

 

 

First of all both my mother and older sister are psychologists... and for your little pitty knowledge, sociopathisms are treated treated by psychiatrists and not sinmple shrinks ;) And how dare you judge me when your entire cultural and educational background was different... thats the problem with western people. They think that they are the only ones who know the truth and they are always right...

epsilon: afther the instauration of Comunism in Romania ( 1948 ) everything was taken from my family, including house, land, money. All that we got was a flat, in wich I still live, so dont talk to me like I wouldent know what happened before it, my grandparents and parents remind it to me on an almost daily basis...

It's not all out sociopathic, but thinking there are justifications for genocide is borderline for sure and pretty unstable. Your Mom and Sister should be able to tell you that if you really do believe that and they know you believe it.

It's as basic pscyhology as they teach you.

Sociopathology is the basic disregard of the rights of others. Not like the "murderous" forms of sociopathology think of or anything but it's certaintly a sign of a mental problem of some kind. Like a Dissocial personality disorder or something.

If someone is brought up thinking that all Ukranians deserve to die, that's still mentally unwell. Culture isn't an excuse for sociopathic beliefs.

Sure a genocide can solve problems, in the same way as me shooting someone who annoys me in the head can solve problems.  Neither are justifiable however.



hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
Frodaddyg said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Why would these countries lie and say their crimes were worse then they were?

 

Maybe they were innovators in the field of e-peen? Maybe doubling the numbers of your historic mass murder may be the equivalent of like a 50 kill streak in Counterstrike.

Also, the fact that one side in this discussion has announced that "partial genocide" can be considered a necessary action definitely shows that their morals are in order.

 

Like it or not partial or full genocide is part of our history and will be, and it was used as a problem resolver since humanity existed. The Egyptians, Romanas, Russians, Americans all used it... so yeah It can be used and considered as a solution. I dont say that I like it, but this is the real world...

Scientists also used to believe that rats were born from piles of dirty clothes and leftover food.

I would like to think that, as a people, we have moved past that point.

 

You do that. Just stay in your nice little clean apartment and neglect the things that happen in this world. It seems that 2/3 of humanity havent passed this phase yet, but thank god that you dont have to worry about the countless genocides that happen in in Africa on a daily basis or the millions of hungry kids who live in Etyopia.

Just because you dont see it it doesnt means that its not happening...

 

I never said it wasn't happening. The difference between me and you is that you seem to think that it's okay.

I don't.

 

I dont say its right, I just say that its a viable option, and seeing how many times it still happens, I would say many, many more do feel the same ;)

 

So you don't think it's right... but you think it's acceptable.

 

Exactly... just like cigares for instance.... they kill more people in a year then how many Osetian citizens will be killed in this entire war. But we accept it because in the same time millions wil benefit from its calming results ( the cigares, not the wars :P ).

 

That's a pretty sick way of thinking. You know WW2 basically got the world out of the great depression.

There is never a justification for genocide.

 

Thank god for democracy, for letting me voice my opinion... right? But as you mentioned above, we have different opinions, and while you say that genocide has no justification, I bealive otherwise, so I seriously se no reason for continuing this debate...


Yeah... thank god most peopel don't agree as well. Jeez genocide has justification... that's just.. sociopathic.

Like seriously... you should see a trained psychologist... that's just not healthy.

 

 

First of all both my mother and older sister are psychologists... and for your little pitty knowledge, sociopathisms are treated treated by psychiatrists and not sinmple shrinks ;) And how dare you judge me when your entire cultural and educational background was different... thats the problem with western people. They think that they are the only ones who know the truth and they are always right...

epsilon: afther the instauration of Comunism in Romania ( 1948 ) everything was taken from my family, including house, land, money. All that we got was a flat, in wich I still live, so dont talk to me like I wouldent know what happened before it, my grandparents and parents remind it to me on an almost daily basis...

Yes b/c your way have thinking has gotten lots of great results hasn't it? Btw you shouldn't have a pity party about ppl judging you and then judge westerners in the same sentence. As far as this "history" that so conveniently has befallen you why would you defend your way of life if its the very type of ideals that made your life so miserable? Your statements are not adding up and are most likely internet bullshit since you seem to have an answer for everything.

 



Consoles Owned: Sega Genesis, NES, PS2 (RIP) N64, Xbox, Xbox 360, PS3, Wii

  

"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is rule."

~ Friedrich Nietzsche

And some people wonder where Russia got its shady reputation. If I were in a position of power in Ukraine, Poland or any of the baltic countries, I'd start bulking up my army and joining NATO yesterday. And buying nukes, if at all possible.

That was a well planned play by comrade Putin and his yes-men, actually. First, dig in outside Georgia and start provoking it by supporting the rebel provinces, and disrupt Georgia itself until it moves. Second, overwhelm Georgia by sheer mass, annex the rebel provinces and force Georgia into an (lopsided) peace treaty. Finally, wipe your ass with the peace treaty, absorb Georgia, kill every Georgian still standing and laugh at the west as they shake with impotent rage.

The EU countries can't really do too much immediately, unless Africa or the US can provide them with an alternate sources of oil and natural gas. Even if they did, a large-scale mobilization would take at least a few weeks, and by then it'd be too late.

I don't know too many Russians personally, so I can't say anything about them as people. But I've personally never trusted Putin ever since he stepped into office, and pulling crap like this (alongside the lovely Checnyan picnic, his "controlled democracy" and "vanishing undesirables, part 39 070") is exactly why.



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