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Forums - General - Russia Already Violating Truce

hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
Frodaddyg said:
Kasz216 said:

Why would these countries lie and say their crimes were worse then they were?

 

Maybe they were innovators in the field of e-peen? Maybe doubling the numbers of your historic mass murder may be the equivalent of like a 50 kill streak in Counterstrike.

Also, the fact that one side in this discussion has announced that "partial genocide" can be considered a necessary action definitely shows that their morals are in order.

 

Like it or not partial or full genocide is part of our history and will be, and it was used as a problem resolver since humanity existed. The Egyptians, Romanas, Russians, Americans all used it... so yeah It can be used and considered as a solution. I dont say that I like it, but this is the real world...

Scientists also used to believe that rats were born from piles of dirty clothes and leftover food.

I would like to think that, as a people, we have moved past that point.

 

You do that. Just stay in your nice little clean apartment and neglect the things that happen in this world. It seems that 2/3 of humanity havent passed this phase yet, but thank god that you dont have to worry about the countless genocides that happen in in Africa on a daily basis or the millions of hungry kids who live in Etyopia.

Just because you dont see it it doesnt means that its not happening...

 

I never said it wasn't happening. The difference between me and you is that you seem to think that it's okay.

I don't.

 

I dont say its right, I just say that its a viable option, and seeing how many times it still happens, I would say many, many more do feel the same ;)

 

So you don't think it's right... but you think it's acceptable.

 

Exactly... just like cigares for instance.... they kill more people in a year then how many Osetian citizens will be killed in this entire war. But we accept it because in the same time millions wil benefit from its calming results ( the cigares, not the wars :P ).

 

That's a pretty sick way of thinking. You know WW2 basically got the world out of the great depression.

There is never a justification for genocide.



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RockSmith372 said:
MrBubbles said:
I feel absolutely horrible that NATO is letting this country die.

 

 no one is going to attack Russia. They are the second greatest military power in the world.(US is the best)

 

 Well thank god it has the biggest Nuclear arsenal in the world ( Russia ) :P



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

the russian military isnt very good actually. perhaps if there was less corruption their oil wealth could have been used to fix it, but that isnt the case.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
Frodaddyg said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Why would these countries lie and say their crimes were worse then they were?

 

Maybe they were innovators in the field of e-peen? Maybe doubling the numbers of your historic mass murder may be the equivalent of like a 50 kill streak in Counterstrike.

Also, the fact that one side in this discussion has announced that "partial genocide" can be considered a necessary action definitely shows that their morals are in order.

 

Like it or not partial or full genocide is part of our history and will be, and it was used as a problem resolver since humanity existed. The Egyptians, Romanas, Russians, Americans all used it... so yeah It can be used and considered as a solution. I dont say that I like it, but this is the real world...

Scientists also used to believe that rats were born from piles of dirty clothes and leftover food.

I would like to think that, as a people, we have moved past that point.

 

You do that. Just stay in your nice little clean apartment and neglect the things that happen in this world. It seems that 2/3 of humanity havent passed this phase yet, but thank god that you dont have to worry about the countless genocides that happen in in Africa on a daily basis or the millions of hungry kids who live in Etyopia.

Just because you dont see it it doesnt means that its not happening...

 

I never said it wasn't happening. The difference between me and you is that you seem to think that it's okay.

I don't.

 

I dont say its right, I just say that its a viable option, and seeing how many times it still happens, I would say many, many more do feel the same ;)

 

So you don't think it's right... but you think it's acceptable.

 

Exactly... just like cigares for instance.... they kill more people in a year then how many Osetian citizens will be killed in this entire war. But we accept it because in the same time millions wil benefit from its calming results ( the cigares, not the wars :P ).

 

That's a pretty sick way of thinking. You know WW2 basically got the world out of the great depression.

There is never a justification for genocide.

 

 Thank god for democracy, for letting me voice my opinion... right? But as you mentioned above, we have different opinions, and while you say that genocide has no justification, I bealive otherwise, so I seriously se no reason for continuing this debate...



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

MrBubbles said:
the russian military isnt very good actually. perhaps if there was less corruption their oil wealth could have been used to fix it, but that isnt the case.

 

 Well they did announced that they could quadriple their military expanses untill 2010, so it could evolve pretty fast. Also, the USA spend over 400 billion dollars on its military in 2007 while Russia only spent 50... less then Germany actually... but then they could also hide things...



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

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hunter_alien said:
MrBubbles said:
the russian military isnt very good actually. perhaps if there was less corruption their oil wealth could have been used to fix it, but that isnt the case.

 

 Well they did announced that they could quadriple their military expanses untill 2010, so it could evolve pretty fast. Also, the USA spend over 400 billion dollars on its military in 2007 while Russia only spent 50... less then Germany actually... but then they could also hide things...

 

they can throw more money in that pit if they want to.  it doesnt mean the money will get to where its supposed to be.  just more money to line the pockets of the corrupt.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

MrBubbles Review Threads: Bill Gates, Jak II, Kingdom Hearts II, The Strangers, Sly 2, Crackdown, Zohan, Quarantine, Klungo Sssavesss Teh World, MS@E3'08, WATCHMEN(movie), Shadow of the Colossus, The Saboteur

MrBubbles said:
hunter_alien said:
MrBubbles said:
the russian military isnt very good actually. perhaps if there was less corruption their oil wealth could have been used to fix it, but that isnt the case.

 

 Well they did announced that they could quadriple their military expanses untill 2010, so it could evolve pretty fast. Also, the USA spend over 400 billion dollars on its military in 2007 while Russia only spent 50... less then Germany actually... but then they could also hide things...

 

they can throw more money in that pit if they want to.  it doesnt mean the money will get to where its supposed to be.  just more money to line the pockets of the corrupt.

Well in any case, if Mr. Putin wants weapons he will get them, of that I can asure you ;)

 



Vote the Mayor for Mayor!

hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
Kasz216 said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
rocketpig said:
hunter_alien said:
Frodaddyg said:
Kasz216 said:

Why would these countries lie and say their crimes were worse then they were?

 

Maybe they were innovators in the field of e-peen? Maybe doubling the numbers of your historic mass murder may be the equivalent of like a 50 kill streak in Counterstrike.

Also, the fact that one side in this discussion has announced that "partial genocide" can be considered a necessary action definitely shows that their morals are in order.

 

Like it or not partial or full genocide is part of our history and will be, and it was used as a problem resolver since humanity existed. The Egyptians, Romanas, Russians, Americans all used it... so yeah It can be used and considered as a solution. I dont say that I like it, but this is the real world...

Scientists also used to believe that rats were born from piles of dirty clothes and leftover food.

I would like to think that, as a people, we have moved past that point.

 

You do that. Just stay in your nice little clean apartment and neglect the things that happen in this world. It seems that 2/3 of humanity havent passed this phase yet, but thank god that you dont have to worry about the countless genocides that happen in in Africa on a daily basis or the millions of hungry kids who live in Etyopia.

Just because you dont see it it doesnt means that its not happening...

 

I never said it wasn't happening. The difference between me and you is that you seem to think that it's okay.

I don't.

 

I dont say its right, I just say that its a viable option, and seeing how many times it still happens, I would say many, many more do feel the same ;)

 

So you don't think it's right... but you think it's acceptable.

 

Exactly... just like cigares for instance.... they kill more people in a year then how many Osetian citizens will be killed in this entire war. But we accept it because in the same time millions wil benefit from its calming results ( the cigares, not the wars :P ).

 

That's a pretty sick way of thinking. You know WW2 basically got the world out of the great depression.

There is never a justification for genocide.

 

Thank god for democracy, for letting me voice my opinion... right? But as you mentioned above, we have different opinions, and while you say that genocide has no justification, I bealive otherwise, so I seriously se no reason for continuing this debate...


Yeah... thank god most peopel don't agree as well. Jeez genocide has justification... that's just.. sociopathic.

Like seriously... you should see a trained psychologist... that's just not healthy.



I think hunter_alien's tune would be completely different had he been alive prior to 1989.



http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/382744

"The war in South Ossetia is essentially over, and the Georgians have lost. This was Georgia's second attempt in eighteen years to conquer the breakaway territory by force, and now that option is gone for good. So are the country's hopes of joining NATO. Yet sections of the Western media are carrying on as if the Russians started it, and are now threatening to invade Georgia itself.

Meanwhile, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital." Nonsense. It was Georgia that started this war.

The chronology tells it all. Skirmishes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian militia grew more frequent over the past several months, but on Thursday, August 7, Saakashvili offered the separatist South Ossetian government "an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks," promising that "full autonomy" was on the table. Only hours later, however, he ordered a general offensive.

South Ossetia's president, Eduard Kokoity, called Saakashvili's ceasefire offer a "despicable and treacherous" ruse, which seems fair enough. Through all of Thursday night and Friday morning Georgian artillery shells and rockets rained down on the little city of Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's capital, while Georgian infantry and tanks encircled it. Russian journalists reported that 70 percent of the city was destroyed, and by Friday afternoon it was in Georgian hands.

The offensive was obviously planned well in advance, but Saakashvili didn't think it through. He knew that the world's attention would be distracted by the Olympics, and he hoped that Russia's reaction would be slow because Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was off in Beijing.

Given three or four days to establish full military control of South Ossetia, he could put a pro-Georgian administration in place and declare the problem solved. But his calculations were wrong.

There was no delay in the Russian response. A large Russian force was on its way from North Ossetia (which is part of the Russian Federation) by mid-day on Friday, and Russian jets began striking targets inside Georgia proper. By the time Vladimir Putin reached the North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz on Saturday morning, the Georgian forces were already being driven out of Tskhinvali again.

By Saturday evening, Georgia was calling for a ceasefire and declaring that all its troops were being withdrawn from South Ossetia to prevent a "humanitarian catastrophe." Saakashvili's gamble had failed - and, as Putin put it, the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow".

Not just South Ossetia has been lost for good. Georgia's hope of ever recovering its other breakaway province, Abkhazia, has also evaporated. On Saturday, the Abkhazian government announced a military offensive to drive Georgian troops out of the Kodori gorge, the last bit of Abkhazian territory that they control. How much does all of this matter?

It matters a lot to the 300,000 Georgians who fled from Abkhazia and South Ossetia when the two ethnic enclaves, which were autonomous parts of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in Soviet times, declared their independence after the old Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Georgia's attempts to reconquer them in 1992-93 were bloody failures, and after this second failure it is clear that the Georgian refugees will never go home.

It is a reason to rejoice for most Abkhazians and South Ossetians.

Although they are Orthodox Christians like the far more numerous Georgians, they are ethnically distinct peoples with different languages, and they always resented Stalin's decision to place them under Georgian rule.

Whether they ultimately get full independence or simply join the Russian Federation, they will be happy with the outcome.

The Bush administration's bizarre ambition to extend NATO into the Caucasus mountains is dead. Russians are pleased with the speed and effectiveness of their government's response. And nobody else really cares.

There is no great moral issue here. What Georgia tried to do to South Ossetia is precisely what Russia did to Chechnya, but Georgia wasn't strong enough and South Ossetia had a bigger friend. There is no great strategic issue either: apart from a few pipeline routes, the whole Transcaucasus is of little importance to the rest of the world. A year from now the Georgians will probably have dumped Saakashvili, and the rest of us may not even remember his foolish adventure.

Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist. His column appears each Wednesday."