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Forums - Gaming Discussion - This trend of spitting on casual gamers...

ckmlb on 24 June 2007

Games are about more than just fun, the good ones at least. Do I really need to explain this to gamers? Also, I like how people totally ignore the games that do push artistic boundaries when dealing with traditional console games and go straight to what is easy to put down as violent and 'for teens'.



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

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Bodhesatva on 24 June 2007
ckmlb said:
It might have been kiddie playing video games years ago when the older generations were non gamers, but now the average age of the person playing Halo is not in the low teens and it will go further and further up as gamers grow up and there are more of them in the coming generations.

To somehow tell me that violent video games are immature is pretty baseless as violence is probably the topic that has most interested man throughout the ages and engaging in simulated violence does not make it automatically less than playing a strategy game.


Games have made basically zero inroads into the adult market for 15 years. 23 year old gamers? Sure. But the 35+ market has avoided everything but The Sims, Civilization, and Tetris.

Again: this should tell you something.



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

Bodhesatva on 24 June 2007
ckmlb said:
Games are about more than just fun, the good ones at least. Do I really need to explain this to gamers? Also, I like how people totally ignore the games that do push artistic boundaries when dealing with traditional console games and go straight to what is easy to put down as violent and 'for teens'.

Such as Civilization, the Sims, Tetris, and Brain Age? Sure, I agree, those are more than just fun. 

What games are you talking about? Just curious, because I can only think of one or two that remotely fit the bill.  



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

ckmlb on 24 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
It might have been kiddie playing video games years ago when the older generations were non gamers, but now the average age of the person playing Halo is not in the low teens and it will go further and further up as gamers grow up and there are more of them in the coming generations.

To somehow tell me that violent video games are immature is pretty baseless as violence is probably the topic that has most interested man throughout the ages and engaging in simulated violence does not make it automatically less than playing a strategy game.

Here's another task for you, Ckmlb:

Go find me any movie or book, ever, that has been canonized and deals with a super spy killing hundreds of bad guys. Any one. Or heck, how about a super soldier killing hundreds of space aliens? Or a World War II soldier killing hundreds of Nazis?

 


 That's the game element of the equation. Do you expect the game to have one enemy or something and that you go and kill some guy then it would either be really short or not a game but an interactive movie. For it to be a game there has to be levels, enemies, obstacles, challenges. 

You really think this proves your point? You do know that a game revolves around a player going around interacting with others.

Also here's a task for you:

Find me a book that canonizes someone creating a bunch of characters and putting them in a house and making them do daily things (sims) or that canonizes a brain teaser. Does this prove my point? NO.

You have this idea that what is artistic is only what was handed down to us as art from past generations. I'm sure the best movies now would have never been considered art in the old narrow definition.



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

gorgepir on 24 June 2007

I have to agree with Bodhesatva here, what game deal with religion? The only games I have played are probably Civilization and in a week sense Populous. But I might not be the best person on this matter since I will obviously be biased towards civ on the matter.

Edit: I can't stress this point enough, if Sid Meiers makes a PS3 exclusive game that is not available on the PC, I am getting a PS3 



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ckmlb on 24 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
tabsina said:
ckmlb said:
People who watch crappy movies carry the movie industry, should they get respect?

Same with people who listen to crap music.

 

offtopic addition: ... or watch reality shows

 


Reality show watchers contribute to tv stations making money, should I respect the people who watch that garbage?


Gears of War, God of War, Killzone, and so forth are simply no better. They're violent fantasy lands for young males.

Your suggestion that these games are sophisticated, while Reality shows are for philistines, is patently and obviously false. Educated adults don't watch many reality shows, I agree with that. Nielson has consistently shown that the primary audience for these types of shows are in the 15-30 year old range.

And guess what? The games you apparently think are way more sophisticated attract the exact same people. Just as adults tend to prefer Law and Order (or don't watch T.V. at all), adults tend to prefer Wii Sports to Metal Gear, The Sims to Gears of War, and Civilization to God of War.

Again, what does this tell you? It tells you that you have it backwards. It's YOUR games that target younger people. It's YOUR games that are equivalent to "crappy movies", and it's YOUR games that target the same demographic as reality shows. So please, stop.


First of all, don't call them my games. Second of all: what demographic does Wii Sports target? It targets people who treat games as little meaningless passtimes and little kids. Who else targets little kids? The teletubbies. So should I go around saying that these games are the equivilant of the teletubbies? Your point is pretty ridiculous.

Who cares what demographic they target? The idea that it is targetting this demographic meaning it is by default non artistic is wrong. So there's no one who likes artistic stuff in this demographic?

You are making yourself feel good by claiming that you are playing the 'adult' games because you swing a wii mote as a tennis racket rather than a sword... pretty BS if you ask me.


Demographics are really the only possible way to clearly define art. Otherwise, you can claim that Lord of the Rings is as deep and serious a work as Shakespeare, and I literally have no way to argue against it, other than to say that well educated people tend to disagree. What else do I say? Other than writing a thesis paper, I have nothing else.

Simple example! Find any fine artistic medium -- Opera, Classical Music, or heck, even Bob Dylan, Art House Movies, Great Literature, Sculpture, Painting, Architecture -- any one that is preferred by 15-23 year old males and shunned by adults. Guess what, they don't exist!

Now, let's name the "crappy" arts, as you put it. I can find a ton -- reality shows, action movies, horror movies, pop music. Guess what? These all target the same audience as God of War. 15-25 year old males.

Again, there's absolutely no way to "prove" that Shakespeare is more sophisticated than, say, Uwe Bole movies. What do I say, other than "obviously, it is?" The only thing we have to go by is who tends to be attracted to these different mediums, as well educated adults would, in general, greatly prefer Shakespeare to "Blood Rayne." The fact that reality shows and "crappy movies" that you so demean are enjoyed by the SAME DEMOGRAPHIC that likes God of War is the best possible objective evidence one can give that these are analogous.


 So younger age automatically means non artistic and shallow. Again ignore the idea that these art house games also target little children and go ahead and make the claim that they are merely targetting educated adults. 



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

ckmlb on 24 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
It might have been kiddie playing video games years ago when the older generations were non gamers, but now the average age of the person playing Halo is not in the low teens and it will go further and further up as gamers grow up and there are more of them in the coming generations.

To somehow tell me that violent video games are immature is pretty baseless as violence is probably the topic that has most interested man throughout the ages and engaging in simulated violence does not make it automatically less than playing a strategy game.


Games have made basically zero inroads into the adult market for 15 years. 23 year old gamers? Sure. But the 35+ market has avoided everything but The Sims, Civilization, and Tetris.

Again: this should tell you something.


 Watch in the next ten years. The average age of gamers has gone up all the time. The only thing it should tell me is that those people were before the main video games age and thus do not deal with it and consider it 'not for them'.



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

Fuzzmosis on 24 June 2007

Religion? FFX. Wasn't the main storyline, but Jesus it was blatant.



See Ya George.

"He did not die - He passed Away"

At least following a comedians own jokes makes his death easier.

gorgepir on 24 June 2007
Fuzzmosis said:
Religion? FFX. Wasn't the main storyline, but Jesus it was blatant.

Compared to Civilization? How can you even mention that?



ckmlb on 24 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Games are about more than just fun, the good ones at least. Do I really need to explain this to gamers? Also, I like how people totally ignore the games that do push artistic boundaries when dealing with traditional console games and go straight to what is easy to put down as violent and 'for teens'.

Such as Civilization, the Sims, Tetris, and Brain Age? Sure, I agree, those are more than just fun.

What games are you talking about? Just curious, because I can only think of one or two that remotely fit the bill.


 Ico is more than just fun. Shadow of the Colossus, Lumines, Okami, Killer 7...

What is there to Brain Age other than fun? Please tell me. I assume you are going to go with the whole idea that brain age is art which is even more ridiculous than me claiming Gears of War is art. I congratulate you for making my argument easier since I never ever claimed Gears was art, I did say it is artistic to some extent and Brain Age is not artistic in any way shape or form.

If it makes you feel good that you are engaging in artistic endeavor by playing Brain Age that's good and all but that doesn't make these games the equivilant of art house flicks.... 



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!