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Forums - Gaming Discussion - This trend of spitting on casual gamers...

Bodhesatva on 24 June 2007
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
It might have been kiddie playing video games years ago when the older generations were non gamers, but now the average age of the person playing Halo is not in the low teens and it will go further and further up as gamers grow up and there are more of them in the coming generations.

To somehow tell me that violent video games are immature is pretty baseless as violence is probably the topic that has most interested man throughout the ages and engaging in simulated violence does not make it automatically less than playing a strategy game.

Here's another task for you, Ckmlb:

Go find me any movie or book, ever, that has been canonized and deals with a super spy killing hundreds of bad guys. Any one. Or heck, how about a super soldier killing hundreds of space aliens? Or a World War II soldier killing hundreds of Nazis?

 


That's the game element of the equation. Do you expect the game to have one enemy or something and that you go and kill some guy then it would either be really short or not a game but an interactive movie. For it to be a game there has to be levels, enemies, obstacles, challenges.

You really think this proves your point? You do know that a game revolves around a player going around interacting with others.

Also here's a task for you:

Find me a book that canonizes someone creating a bunch of characters and putting them in a house and making them do daily things (sims) or that canonizes a brain teaser. Does this prove my point? NO.

You have this idea that what is artistic is only what was handed down to us as art from past generations. I'm sure the best movies now would have never been considered art in the old narrow definition.


There ABSOLUTELY are canonized works that focus on the same things the Sims does: everyday, normal activities. Here are several:

Annie Hall
In the Company Of Men
Straight Story

And books:

Confederacy of Dunces
Brothers Karamazov
Emma

I'm sure I could think of dozens more. And as I've already stated, games CLEARLY do not have to include such action.  Yes, absolutely, games could have one killing/death in the entire game. You act like there's nothing else to fill a game with. How about more mature dialogue? Psychological tension? How about diplomacy, a la Civilization? Or heck, even washing dishes, a la "The Sims?" 

 



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

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ckmlb on 24 June 2007
gorgepir said:
Fuzzmosis said:
Religion? FFX. Wasn't the main storyline, but Jesus it was blatant.

Compared to Civilization? How can you even mention that?


 Can't be mentioned in the face of the mighty Cibilization. Come Fuzzmosis let us be off to our childish games and engage in mindless play while we leave the deep strategizing and artistry of Brain Age to these older gentelmen.



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

ckmlb on 24 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
It might have been kiddie playing video games years ago when the older generations were non gamers, but now the average age of the person playing Halo is not in the low teens and it will go further and further up as gamers grow up and there are more of them in the coming generations.

To somehow tell me that violent video games are immature is pretty baseless as violence is probably the topic that has most interested man throughout the ages and engaging in simulated violence does not make it automatically less than playing a strategy game.

Here's another task for you, Ckmlb:

Go find me any movie or book, ever, that has been canonized and deals with a super spy killing hundreds of bad guys. Any one. Or heck, how about a super soldier killing hundreds of space aliens? Or a World War II soldier killing hundreds of Nazis?

 


That's the game element of the equation. Do you expect the game to have one enemy or something and that you go and kill some guy then it would either be really short or not a game but an interactive movie. For it to be a game there has to be levels, enemies, obstacles, challenges.

You really think this proves your point? You do know that a game revolves around a player going around interacting with others.

Also here's a task for you:

Find me a book that canonizes someone creating a bunch of characters and putting them in a house and making them do daily things (sims) or that canonizes a brain teaser. Does this prove my point? NO.

You have this idea that what is artistic is only what was handed down to us as art from past generations. I'm sure the best movies now would have never been considered art in the old narrow definition.


There ABSOLUTELY are canonized works that focus on the same things the Sims does: everyday, normal activities. Here are several:

Annie Hall
In the Company Of Men
Straight Story

And books:

Confederacy of Dunces
Brothers Karamazov
Emma

I'm sure I could think of dozens more. And as I've already stated, games CLEARLY do not have to include such action. Yes, absolutely, games could have one killing/death in the entire game. You act like there's nothing else to fill a game with. How about more mature dialogue? Psychological tension? How about diplomacy, a la Civilization? Or heck, even washing dishes, a la "The Sims?"

 


 How do you fill up the rest of the game if you are after one person. What you are asking is an interactive movie. Also obstacles don't have to be killing stuff you know. Any obstacles that come between you and the rest of the game.

Also if you think those books are focused on the day to day and aren't meat to convey hundreds of other things then you are definitely wrong. If you think of it that way then any book has day to day activities occuring in it, is that the point of the book? NO.



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

Bodhesatva on 24 June 2007
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Games are about more than just fun, the good ones at least. Do I really need to explain this to gamers? Also, I like how people totally ignore the games that do push artistic boundaries when dealing with traditional console games and go straight to what is easy to put down as violent and 'for teens'.

Such as Civilization, the Sims, Tetris, and Brain Age? Sure, I agree, those are more than just fun.

What games are you talking about? Just curious, because I can only think of one or two that remotely fit the bill.


Ico is more than just fun. Shadow of the Colossus, Lumines, Okami, Killer 7...

What is there to Brain Age other than fun? Please tell me. I assume you are going to go with the whole idea that brain age is art which is even more ridiculous than me claiming Gears of War is art. I congratulate you for making my argument easier since I never ever claimed Gears was art, I did say it is artistic to some extent and Brain Age is not artistic in any way shape or form.

If it makes you feel good that you are engaging in artistic endeavor by playing Brain Age that's good and all but that doesn't make these games the equivilant of art house flicks....


Brain Age has SPECIFICALLY been found to increase neurological function. Directly and explicitly. In this case, the adult value is in it's intellectual activity, not in it's purely aesthetic quality.

"Research has shown that reading out loud and performing calculations quickly are effective for training your brain."

Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and Okami are very good, and you know I liked Shadow of the Colossus a great deal. But their "art" is largely just visual, unlike "The Sims" or "Civilization," whose maturity is in the gameplay directly. And please note that these are three games in a library of 1,500 Playstation 2 games. It's dismally low. 

And again, my main concern is for something to be intellectually stimulating, the way Picasso's Guernica, or Robespierre's The Spirit of the Laws are. I do agree that aesthetics matter -- it's just not my main goal here. 



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">

gorgepir on 24 June 2007
ckmlb said:
gorgepir said:
Fuzzmosis said:
Religion? FFX. Wasn't the main storyline, but Jesus it was blatant.

Compared to Civilization? How can you even mention that?


Can't be mentioned in the face of the mighty Cibilization. Come Fuzzmosis let us be off to our childish games and engage in mindless play while we leave the deep strategizing and artistry of Brain Age to these older gentelmen.


What did religion do in FFX. You just went around and collected the dead for them to go to the final resting place? That is just a mean. Compared to civilization where religion is a major factor and completely changes the course of the game. 

I will not tolerate any insults to civilization here.



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Fuzzmosis on 24 June 2007

And it's fairly easy.

Civilization: Religion is a tool, applying bonuses/penalties for using and converting agents against enemies etc.

FFX: The religion of Yevon and it's interactions with the world and Sin drive the entire god damn storyline. I don't think it's possible to not note the power they give religion and the good and the bad it drives in people if you've actually played the game.



See Ya George.

"He did not die - He passed Away"

At least following a comedians own jokes makes his death easier.

ckmlb on 24 June 2007

Just to make it obvious if it isn't already, I don't consider Gears of War art but it has artistic elements same with some other games. Similarly I do wish all games would strive to be more artistic. But to tell me that somehow brain teasers are more artistic than traditional games is nonsense.

You seem to keep insisting that Brain Age is art which I cannot convey to you how much that sounds like total garbage to me. Do you think crossword puzzles are art too? How about the Rubik's cube?



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

Fuzzmosis on 24 June 2007

Then again, I will admit to only playing Civ very rarely, never got into the series, and single player it may drive much more storyline wise. In just simple set up games, it's merely a tool.



See Ya George.

"He did not die - He passed Away"

At least following a comedians own jokes makes his death easier.

ckmlb on 24 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Bodhesatva said:
ckmlb said:
Games are about more than just fun, the good ones at least. Do I really need to explain this to gamers? Also, I like how people totally ignore the games that do push artistic boundaries when dealing with traditional console games and go straight to what is easy to put down as violent and 'for teens'.

Such as Civilization, the Sims, Tetris, and Brain Age? Sure, I agree, those are more than just fun.

What games are you talking about? Just curious, because I can only think of one or two that remotely fit the bill.


Ico is more than just fun. Shadow of the Colossus, Lumines, Okami, Killer 7...

What is there to Brain Age other than fun? Please tell me. I assume you are going to go with the whole idea that brain age is art which is even more ridiculous than me claiming Gears of War is art. I congratulate you for making my argument easier since I never ever claimed Gears was art, I did say it is artistic to some extent and Brain Age is not artistic in any way shape or form.

If it makes you feel good that you are engaging in artistic endeavor by playing Brain Age that's good and all but that doesn't make these games the equivilant of art house flicks....


Brain Age has SPECIFICALLY been found to increase neurological function. Directly and explicitly. In this case, the adult value is in it's intellectual activity, not in it's purely aesthetic quality.

"Research has shown that reading out loud and performing calculations quickly are effective for training your brain."

Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and Okami are very good, and you know I liked Shadow of the Colossus a great deal. But their "art" is largely just visual, unlike "The Sims" or "Civilization," whose maturity is in the gameplay directly. And please note that these are three games in a library of 1,500 Playstation 2 games. It's dismally low.

And again, my main concern is for something to be intellectually stimulating, the way Picasso's Guernica, or Robespierre's The Spirit of the Laws are. I do agree that aesthetics matter -- it's just not my main goal here.


 I meant more than fun in the realm of art because you claim that Brain Age is art. I'm sure using your brain to solve stuff obviously means more brain activity lol I thoght that was given.



Thanks to Blacksaber for the sig!

Fuzzmosis on 24 June 2007

Your people discover Buddhism! You gain one Monk! Use that monk to convert your opponents and lower their territory! The Shangri-La Accomplishment can now be built!

Seriously, that's all I know of the religion in the Civ series. If there's more, I missed it by not playing single player.



See Ya George.

"He did not die - He passed Away"

At least following a comedians own jokes makes his death easier.