By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Kojima: "Next level of gaming" not yet possible

Fishie said:
DTG said:
Two of the most influential thinkers of the past half century working on one game TOGETHER? I expect nothing short of a revolution.

 

Oh do tell me how these producers/directors of videogames are two of the most influential thinkers of the past 50 years?

Personally I think they influenced Jack and Shit and I think Jack just left the room.

Stanley Kubrick, Joseph Heller, The Beatles, (continue ad nauseum), they ain't got shit on Suda and Kojima.

*giggles*




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

Around the Network
rocketpig said:
greenmedic88 said:
Fundamentally, the MGS series has not changed since MGS1, but to say that MGS1 is the same game as MGS4 minus hardware based improvements is very subjective.

It requires boiling everything away but the basic premise and mechanics of the game, which actually haven't changed from the original Metal Gear on the MSX.

I've made the observation myself that there are more similarities between games in the series than there are differences, particularly after playing through MGS again after finishing MGS4, but to say that MGS4 is the same game as MGS on better hardware is to me, a load of hot air.


The same can be said of just about every franchise that maintained its original format.

The biggest leap almost every longstanding game franchise made (spanning at least 4 generations of consoles) was the transition from 2D to 3D. And that provided a change in mechanics primarily because of the third axis movement that 3D environments provide.

Mario 64: fundamentally the same game as Mario Galaxy. Lots of improvements and innovative additions to the formula, but fundamentally the same game. Change the formula too much and the very things that made a game popular to begin with may be lost.

Most Japanese developers, as a group, have fallen behind the curve in the innovation department, largely because of their dependence upon the same successful formula that really hasn't changed much, if at all from the original concept.

Many Japanese developers have actually admitted this. If I'm not mistaken, Kojima was one of them.

This is partly because the Japanese gaming audience has been more or less content to play the same franchises every time a new platform is introduced. It's not often that a new franchise is both truly groundbreaking with commercial success to match.

Final Fantasy: After 13 chapters, fundamentally, the only things that have changed are the characters, environments, enemies, and plots. Everything else has been consistent tweaks in the combat systems and graphical improvements, the largest leap being to FFVII, due almost entirely to the 3D environment the game existed in.


JRPGs as a genre at a fundamental level, haven't changed. But it's the formula that keeps players interested in the genre.

FPS games: Is Wolfenstein 3D really that different in the basic concept and play mechanics from virtually every 3D FPS to follow? It was primitive and clunky by today's standards, but it did establish the basic play mechanics that would be consistently added to and improved upon as the genre matured and advances in technology and programming technique allowed such evolution to occur.

In all seriousness, the the biggest leap that could have been made would be to take a game strongly represented in one genre and turn it into another.

Warcraft - World of Warcraft

FPS Halo - RTS Halo Wars (we'll see how successful this turns out to be)


Red:

It is essentially the same game with a different control system. Almost everything Kojima has done with MGS4 could have been done on MGS1 with blockier graphics and less sound fidelity. Kojima introduced the signature points of the series in MGS1: cinematic presentations, voice acting throughout the game, 3D stealth environments, massive boss battles, lengthy cutscenes, etc. etc.

Changes in the control system are what made MGS4 multiple times more playable than MGS1, which was the reason I never finished the game back in 98. Essentially what you've said yourself to be the key difference between Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy is changes in the control system. Granted controls make far more of a difference for an action platformer than a stealth action game, the controls were often a liability for the MGS series prior to MGS3 Subsistence. It took between 1998 and 2005 to bring the play system up to current standards. 

Most players were forgiving, but a large part of that had to do with being captivated by the story and the overall game experience. While I'm not in the majority, there were plenty of times throughout the MGS series (MGS, MGS2 and MGS3) that I wished there was a "skip game play" button so I could get to the next scene, when camera angles and clumsy controls became a liability. Players basically got around these parts through memorizing a section of the game (memorizing where enemies are, etc.), which is generally poor game design by modern standards when it becomes a requirement to get through.

Green:

3D, as you stated, was one of the largest transitions in gaming ever. It alone changed how games are viewed and how they are played. Even then, using the Mario franchise is a terrible way to back up your point. Play M64 then Sunshine then Galaxy. Yes, they're all platformers. Yes, they all involve Mario. The enemies are pretty much the same throughout. That's where the similarities end. The actual game portion of all three are drastically different from one another. Mario's always been about controls and Myamoto changes up those with every iteration of the series. When controls are the fundamental core of your game, changing them completely alters the face of the series.

I see similar development between MGS3 Subsistence, MGS4 and MGS Everything Else. Regular changes in controls from loose "watch dial" aiming, to precise FPS aiming, fixed camera angle to free roam 3D camera, loose "Snake on Ice Skates" controls to more responsive and precise (yet still room for improvement) movement/control response in addition to all the play mechanics that were added and improved upon over the years (cardboard box to menu controled manual camo to on the fly texture mapping camo).

But it's a point of view. People are going to take in what they want to see and forget the rest.

The big jump for MGS was the move to a 3D environment, with often broken, fixed camera angles and the additional production values that made it feel more like playing in an action film (musical score, voice acting, 3D cinematics, etc.). The controls were loose and inaccurate, which was par for 3D games in the mid-late 90s and left much room for improvement.

Orange:

This is an interesting phenomenon in Japanese development of games and it's interesting to see how companies like Capcom are trying to break out of that mold. Capcom did a good job of reinvigorating the RE series with RE4 but still, it's pretty much the same game (though without complete shit controls). I'm excited to see what they have in store for RE5, Capcom being one of the most progressive Japanese developers out there.

You might be disappointed by RE5 based upon early reports, at least from a game play perspective. The story and campaign will likely be better than RE4 given the series' trend of continually turning up the wick, but the game engine itself seems largely unchanged from RE4, which while functional, and only slightly less so without the aim assist provided by Wii style IR tracking, can hardly considered to be groundbreaking from a game play/mechanics perspective.

Most Japanese developers seem fairly content to keep developing relatively unchanged sequels to existing franchises so long as they continue to sell. From the global perspective of development, this is precisely why they have as a group, fallen behind in game design.

Blue:

FPS games have moved so far past the early iD games that they're almost unrecognizable when compared to their predecessors. RPG elements, vehicular combat, open-ended choices, sandbox-style gameplay... There's not a lot there to compare past "see bad guy, shoot bad guy". Again, a pretty weak argument to stand on. And that's not even bringing in games like Battlefield or Counter-Strike that completely changed how we play FPS games and how many people we play them with.

The earliest FPS games (Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Marathon) were primitive by comparison as I stated. Hardware didn't allow for more than a "rat in a maze" style of level design. Enemies were sprites and the only polygons used were in the construction of the 3D maze.

The FPS genre has benefited more than any other genre, with advances made in hardware development. FPS games as a genre on PC specifically sell hardware (video cards) as they are typically the most hardware intensive pieces of consumer used coding. Control schemes are tweaked with each generation to take advantage of advances in technology, and game play mechanics standards shift with each standard setting title, but the heart remains the same as it has since the early 90's.

Multiple play which progressed into online play didn't change the way the games were structured so much as the way they were played. If online play (which likely resulted in the most growth in the genre) is the biggest advancement, then the assumption would be that Halo 2 is the most groundbreaking game of the series?

I don't think MGO changed the way the MGS series was perceived, nor did it change the way most people played the game either, but it brought the same multiplayer online aspect to fans of the series.

 

 



rocketpig said:
Fishie said:
DTG said:
Two of the most influential thinkers of the past half century working on one game TOGETHER? I expect nothing short of a revolution.

 

Oh do tell me how these producers/directors of videogames are two of the most influential thinkers of the past 50 years?

Personally I think they influenced Jack and Shit and I think Jack just left the room.

Stanley Kubrick, Joseph Heller, The Beatles, (continue ad nauseum), they ain't got shit on Suda and Kojima.

*giggles*

 

Or(regardless of how wrong their ideologies might have been they have been way too infuential) Mao Zedong, the Neocons, Khomeini, Osama Bin Ladin etcetera.

 

Or those with the pen like Gore Vidal or Gabriel Garcia Marquez etcetera.

 

Yeah those guys hold no candle to great infuential thinkers like Suda and Kojima.

 

Hey, now I start wondering if Escape from New York is a revolutionary movie with thoughts intertwined so deep that we cant even begin to comprehend its depth seeing as how it was one of the big influences for the Metal Gear games.

 

Now lets all stand in line and shout NANOBOT.



rocketpig said:
Fishie said:
DTG said:
Two of the most influential thinkers of the past half century working on one game TOGETHER? I expect nothing short of a revolution.

 

Oh do tell me how these producers/directors of videogames are two of the most influential thinkers of the past 50 years?

Personally I think they influenced Jack and Shit and I think Jack just left the room.

Stanley Kubrick, Joseph Heller, The Beatles, (continue ad nauseum), they ain't got shit on Suda and Kojima.

*giggles*

Try Chomsky, Wittgenstein and Hawking.

Creators of popular media are at heart, entertainers, and not who the general public should be taking their cues from even though that is often precisely what they do.

 



I realize that. I was only listing entertainers because they're more closely related to game makers. The list of worldwide influential thinkers isn't even worth joking about.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

Around the Network
DTG said:
Two of the most influential thinkers of the past half century working on one game TOGETHER? I expect nothing short of a revolution.

What have you been smoking?

 



xbebop said:
DTG said:
Two of the most influential thinkers of the past half century working on one game TOGETHER? I expect nothing short of a revolution.

What have you been smoking?

 

 

 Whatever it is it must be really strong stuff since he made such claims about Kojima and MGS4 on this forum before.



Why would we want to change MGS? People love it why change a winninb formula? Rocketpig~ controls in MGS4 are different to every other MGS. so by your logic ^^ does that change the face of the series?



Well isnt Fable 2 kinda stepping into this territory?
Not completly but its up there.



is this the reason why he once said he is dissapointed with the ps3 hardware



tag:"reviews only matter for the real hardcore gamer"