Blue3 said: Its their product, they can add what ever the hell they want. They can make what ever they want, they can put any restricions they want on it. If customers dont like it they wont buy it and it will fail, forcing them to change it. They sure as hell are not taking away any of your rights, its YOUR choice to buy it or not.

So what you're saying is, it's my choice to have DRM'd high def movies, or to not have high def movies at all?  What the hell kind of choice is that?  The "if customers don't like it they won't buy it" argument falls down very quickly because most customers don't even understand DRM, and even if they do, they usually don't have other ways to get the same content.

It's not about legal backups, it's about not having restrictions on your content.  My LCD monitor uses DVI, but isn't HDCP-enabled.  A lot of HDTVs from a few years ago aren't HDCP-enabled either.  Guess what, when high def movies come out that will only work with HDCP, these customers get downsampled versions of the content.  What if you want to use component video instead of HDMI or DVI?  Yup, you get downsampled content.  DRM is at least as much about making customers jump through hoops and buy new hardware as it is about protecting content from being copied.

Blue3 said: Its their product, they can add what ever the hell they want. They can make what ever they want, they can put any restricions they want on it. If customers dont like it they wont buy it and it will fail, forcing them to change it. They sure as hell are not taking away any of your rights, its YOUR choice to buy it or not. A person buying means they agree and accpet the terms of the product. how would it bite me in the ass, i cant copy it ?

Agree.

Why would you want to copy HD movie anyway. Even if you buy a 1/2 TB HD, you would only be able to store 10 duel layer Blu-Rays! That isn't a realistic scenario. What would be more realistic, is that the HD would only store about 460GB anyway, about 20 GB taken up by Windows, Office and other important programes. So that would be 440/50=8.8

Even if you only "back-upped" singles layer Blu-Rays, it would still be 440/25=17.6 Blu-Rays. And I know our DVD collection is a lot bigger than that! Also, I hardly doubt you'd want to take up your whole HD with pirated HD movies. I'm sure you'd use a few GB for music and games, actual work etc...

I don't care about music. Pirating music forces a pop star to downgrade from an A3 private jet to an A2 private jet. Boohoo, they'll always be rich.
I care a little about movies. DVD sales often determine whether or not a movie really is a success. Grindhouse failed in the theaters due to various unlucky circumstances, but DVD sales could lift it from the grave.
I care a lot about games. Developers put a lot of money into games, and they often only break even on sales. It's not cool to play a game without paying for it...at least rent it...GameFly is only 15 bucks a month, and if you watch twenty 30 second advertisements on BrightSpot.tv a month, GameFly only costs 5 a month.

As someone else said, if you pirate games, go DIAF.

Entroper said: Blue3 said: Its their product, they can add what ever the hell they want. They can make what ever they want, they can put any restricions they want on it. If customers dont like it they wont buy it and it will fail, forcing them to change it. They sure as hell are not taking away any of your rights, its YOUR choice to buy it or not. So what you're saying is, it's my choice to have DRM'd high def movies, or to not have high def movies at all? What the hell kind of choice is that? The "if customers don't like it they won't buy it" argument falls down very quickly because most customers don't even understand DRM, and even if they do, they usually don't have other ways to get the same content. It's not about legal backups, it's about not having restrictions on your content. My LCD monitor uses DVI, but isn't HDCP-enabled. A lot of HDTVs from a few years ago aren't HDCP-enabled either. Guess what, when high def movies come out that will only work with HDCP, these customers get downsampled versions of the content. What if you want to use component video instead of HDMI or DVI? Yup, you get downsampled content. DRM is at least as much about making customers jump through hoops and buy new hardware as it is about protecting content from being copied

 However, with the exception of Sony, this thread is about movie companies, and I don't really think the movie companies could care less about whether you have HDCP or DVI or not, so you can't say the movie companies are liking Blu-Ray because they want you to but the latest TV, they want it because they want it to be harder for people to pirate their music. Personally anyone who copies movies I have an instant distaste for, because you know what? I'm actually a law-abiding citizen, and I don't like the few people who pirate movies, or shoplift, driving the prices up for the most of us. So the fewer people who pirate stuff, the better. 

How is DRM good news for us?

footbag said: How is DRM good news for us?

Less piracy, meaning lower prices

Tispower said: However, with the exception of Sony, this thread is about movie companies, and I don't really think the movie companies could care less about whether you have HDCP or DVI or not, so you can't say the movie companies are liking Blu-Ray because they want you to but the latest TV, they want it because they want it to be harder for people to pirate their music. Personally anyone who copies movies I have an instant distaste for, because you know what? I'm actually a law-abiding citizen, and I don't like the few people who pirate movies, or shoplift, driving the prices up for the most of us. So the fewer people who pirate stuff, the better.

You completely missed the point.

How?

Blue3 said: omgwtfbbq said: Blue3 said: omgwtfbbq said: your rights to actually own your media. Your rights to use what you pay for for whatever you want. however, part of this balance,  Your right to get what you pay for. More specifically, your rights to make a legal backup of your media. Your rights to watch/listen to media on any software/hardware/products rather than just those that Company X approves. Your right to an open source implementation of your media player. The right to know that you don't have spyware/rootkits installed on your computer. These are just some of the rights you are cheering the removal of. how about the right of intelligence. You know it has DRM, you know what to expect. Using ignorance as an excuse to later on whine about it is pathetic. What the hell is your point? I'm serious here, I don't really understand what you're saying about "right of intelligence". Are you insinuating that I am unintelligent because I think it's ridiculous to cheer people attempting to take away your rights? Basically, would it be unintelligent for me to argue with someone who says "Good news everybody! The American Government has taken away the population's right to free speech! Now they can put people they don't like in jail and then they'll be able to increase productivity through fear!". I'm sorry I can't cheer the removal of rights. I know it has DRM, that's why I don't buy anything with DRM. Most people are ignorant, and purchase it anyway, meaning that it becomes the standard format and the only way I can get "unprotected" movies is by pirating them. I'm not using ignorance later to whine about it. I am saying now BEFORE people buy into this crap that they shouldn't. It appears YOU'RE the one that purchased into this technology, so you'll be the one bitching later when you get bitten in the arse by it. Since you clearly know about the pitfalls, then you're the one who appears to be lacking intelligence from my side. Its their product, they can add what ever the hell they want. They can make what ever they want, they can put any restricions they want on it. If customers dont like it they wont buy it and it will fail, forcing them to change it. They sure as hell are not taking away any of your rights, its YOUR choice to buy it or not. A person buying means they agree and accpet the terms of the product. how would it bite me in the ass, i cant copy it ?

 Odin's Toe, this is getting long...   A free market system means that anyone can make anything and price it for what they think it's worth, while at the same time the buyers can buy or not buy those products.  Thus, the power is equally distributed (theorectically) between both Consumers and Producers.  Various times this balance has been upset, and and so various laws come into being. on the side of the buyers, things like the anti monopoly laws, which keeps a company from taking over the entire market, squashing the competition and gouging your pockets. On their side is the antipirating laws, thus allowing them to not have to worry about competition of their exact same product from a differant source.  Pirating is, therefore, taking away their rights, which is why they are trying everything they can to protect it.  When you are paying for a ticket on an airplane, are you buying the airplane? When you pay to enter a theme park, are you paying to buy it? You can own a couch, chair, tv, but there are things which are merely rented to you for your use.  Computer programs are one of them. You do not own them. You may indeed own the disc it came on, so feel free to overwrite that if you want. If you want open source, go for it. I'm currently using open source office software. I'm supporting them in the hopes they keep it up. So open source is wonderful. The companies that make games, can't make these huge games on open source, because they couldn't afford to pay thier staff, so they try to make money, and to do that, they try to protect thier investment. Remember, The companies are not just producers, they're consumers too, they are shopping for the various protections that they want.  You want to limit what they can buy, while shouting for your freedom to buy what you want and how you want it?

Tispower said: footbag said: How is DRM good news for us? Less piracy, meaning lower prices

 

How much less can we expect the prices of BD+ discs to be?  

 

I'll answer this myself...  they won't be less.  And hackers will still break it and all of the expenses will be passed on to the consumer.  I don't mind copy protection.  Artists have a right to their works.  But don't try to sell copy protection as a great feature of Bluray.