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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Sony needs to change their game plan.

leo-j said:
Sony is making more money than nintendo and microsoft combined,vaio noteboks/desktops,HD TV'S,hit movies(spideramn 3 for one)etc..they are still selling alot of ps2's.Sony has a plan, they know whats wrong with the ps3, and the korean ps3 sales were better than 360 sales and wii sales.They can cut the price sure they will lose money,but the ps3 will be succesful in the long run.

$449.99-60gb ps3
$549.99-80gb ps3

Those prices along with (game of the year) heavenly sword, will make the ps3 succesful period.
Crazy talk :D

 



 
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leo-j said:
Sony is making more money than nintendo and microsoft combined

Just let us in on something secret... you have no idea, now, do you?



Reality has a Nintendo bias.
eab said:
URNotE said:
i think people forget how many things sony owns as a company.. and they get the gaming part of it confused with it. and think the whole company is losing money... thats the bad part about the internet .. when people see big headlines that say SONY LOST 40 MILLION DUE TO THE PS3... people tend to look at it as the whole company as being 40 million in debt....

This is kind of Off Topic... but I think G.E. should enter the market. I don't think anyone really realizes how much that one company owns.

 

All Numbers are for the 2006 year...

Nintendo

Revenue: $4.5 Billion

Net Income: $840 million


SONY:

Revenue: $68 Billion

Net Income: $1.04 Billion

 

Microsoft

Revenue: $44 Billion

Net Income: $12 Billion

 

General Electric:

Revenue: $163 Billion

Net Income: $20.04 Billion

 

I mean, holy crap G.E, $20,000,000,000 profit each year? 0_o

It's hard to compare companies by taking a snapshot of just one year.  For example the year shown for Sony is one of it's worst years ever, to put it into perspective financial papers expect Sony's profit for 2007 to be 500% higher than 2006 despite sluggish sales and large losses of the PS3.  Also Nintendo's profit it one of the highest in the company's history (perhaps highest?).  And Microsoft's numbers are ok but this year they're on track to reach 17-18 billion in profit (compared to the 12.6 for 2006 - you misplaced 600 million in profit in your numbers), that goes to show you the differences that years can make.  And GE, well they had double digit profit growth the last two years in a row, 20 billion is a record for them.  But since you seemed to pick a company out of random why didn't you choose Exxon which had 40 billion in profit last year?

 



Where on earth did you read Sony's profit was going to increase 500%?



Sullla said:
Bodhesatva said:
Sony was really the first company to use their wallets to profound advantage in the console wars: they sold their consoles at a substantial initial loss; they bought up development houses; they paid third party developers for exclusives titles. Sony used many different creative and effective methods to turn their cash into marketshare. It's worked wonders for them, no question.

The problem isn't that the strategy is ineffective -- it's that Microsoft can play the same game, only better.

I disagree, Bodhesatva. The problem isn't that Microsoft can play this game better, the problem is that this is a losing strategy, period. Let me explain.

Pursuing market share at the expense of profit can allow a company to win one particular generation, without a doubt. The best example of this is of course Sony's runaway victory with the PS2 during the last (6th) generation of consoles. Now in some markets, you can use a market share strategy to establish a virtual monopoly, from which your position is so strong as to be unremovable. Microsoft's Windows operating system is a good example; even though we all know that the competitiors are much better, 90% of us are still using some kind of Windows OS because that's what most software requires. Microsoft pulled those shady market share tactics back in the 80s, and is still reaping the benefit today.

The problem for the console industry is that new systems are released about once every 5 years. And no matter how deeply entrenched one console may have been in the previous generation, it's a whole new ballgame every 5 years when the system wars start all over again. (The best examples being the 95% marketshare enjoyed by the NES, which was essentially halved by the Genesis/Megadrive, as well as the ongoing collapse of the PS2's dominance in the current era.) In the console industry, no matter how great your victory in one generation, you cannot carry that victory over into the next one. And for this reason, pursuing market share at the expense of profit is a losing venture, long-term.

Let's use some examples, so that you can see I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air. During the 5th generation, Sony's Playstation captured a clear victory in the console wars, ending up with about 2/3 of the market. Yet Nintendo actually made more profit from the N64 than Sony did from the PS1 - how was this possible? Because Sony aggressively cut the price of the PS1 again and again as soon as it turned a profit; Sony "won" the console war and effectively undercut Nintendo, but they didn't make a lot of money from that generation. In the 6th generation, Sony won a gigantic success (in market share terms) by being even MORE aggressive with the pricing of the PS2. It was sold at a loss initially, and throughout most of its shelf life as well. The $100 price cut (from $300 to $200) right when the Gamecube and XBox were released effectively disembowled the competition before they could get off the ground. But by selling the system at a loss over and over again, Sony ensured that they would never make all that much of a profit on the PS2. Over its total lifespan (say, 2001-06), SCE only turned profits of about $2 billion. That's a ton of money, no doubt about it, but you'd still expect more given the 125+ million PS2s sold. In summary: when companies follow a market share strategy with consoles, then can "win" a high percentage of consoles sold, but they will always be limited in their profits.

Now for the downside: what happens when you sell your console at a loss and still don't manage to win that generation? Umm... you lose a LOT of money. Microsoft's XBox is the best example; they freely admitted they were not even trying to make a profit on the original XBox, just capture market share. Well, Microsoft succeeded: the XBox sold over 20 million consoles and grabbed about 15% of the market - but had to lose $4 billion to do it. Four billion dollars! Can you even imagine that big of a loss? This is a point well worth repeating: Microsoft's XBox division has NEVER turned a profit in any fiscal quarter, EVER. They're currently over $5 billion in the red. The 360's going to start turning a profit sometime this year, but it will never overtake those losses in its lifetime. It won't even come close. Microsoft will need to have at least 2-3 more successful consoles to make up those losses, and if one of those turns out to be a "loser", they'll be even FURTHER in the red. Similarly, Sony had two consoles that were runaway successes, but with just one stinker (PS3), SCE has already lost ALL of the money they made during the PS2 halcyon days. And to make the PS3 successful, they're going to have to cut the price soon, which means losing even more money... By the end of this generation, SCE may be almost as far into the red as Microsoft's XBox division.

So do you see why the market share strategy is such a bad deal long-term? It can work very well in the short run, but all it takes is one failure to wipe out all the profits of multiple successful consoles. The console industry is a very high-risk one; virtually every company that has put their hat into the ring has ended up losing money in the long run. Even industry huge names like Atari, Sega, and Microsoft have all been long-term losers from a profit standpoint, despite great success in the short term (Sony may also be in this category soon). In fact, from a financial standpoint, Nintendo is the only company that has ever turned a long-term profit from making consoles. Is it a coincidence that they've been the only one NOT to pursue this market share strategy in recent years? I personally say no. Their policy of selling all consoles at a profit has allowed them to stay in business even through generations where they basically failed in their objectives (Gamecube comes to mind).

I've been convinced for years that the "sell at a loss now, make it back later with games" strategy is a long-term loser; Sony was always the sterling example to the contrary, but whoops! Not anymore. Fans who post on message boards only look at the market share aspect of things, so the tactics of a Sony or Microsoft LOOK great when the Gamecube is getting pasted in the market. But profit is what ultimately matters, and since no company can win every generation, the market share strategy is doomed to failure when viewed in the long-term perspective.

Thoughts?


 My thoughts are: I totally agree! Look at this thread I wrote a few weeks back:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=2391

I'm not sure if we could have agreed more fully. However, I would point one thing out -- regardless of whether it's a great or terrible strategy, Sony and Microsoft are still using it. If it's a terrible strategy for Sony, it's a not-quite-so terrible strategy for MS; if it's the worst strategy in the world for Sony, it's the second worst strategy in the world for MS. In short, while you can see I absolutely agree with your post, the actual quality of the plan doesn't change Sony or Microsoft's ability to use it.



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Legend11 said:
eab said:
URNotE said:
i think people forget how many things sony owns as a company.. and they get the gaming part of it confused with it. and think the whole company is losing money... thats the bad part about the internet .. when people see big headlines that say SONY LOST 40 MILLION DUE TO THE PS3... people tend to look at it as the whole company as being 40 million in debt....

This is kind of Off Topic... but I think G.E. should enter the market. I don't think anyone really realizes how much that one company owns.

 

All Numbers are for the 2006 year...

Nintendo

Revenue: $4.5 Billion

Net Income: $840 million


SONY:

Revenue: $68 Billion

Net Income: $1.04 Billion

 

Microsoft

Revenue: $44 Billion

Net Income: $12 Billion

 

General Electric:

Revenue: $163 Billion

Net Income: $20.04 Billion

 

I mean, holy crap G.E, $20,000,000,000 profit each year? 0_o

It's hard to compare companies by taking a snapshot of just one year. For example the year shown for Sony is one of it's worst years ever, to put it into perspective financial papers expect Sony's profit for 2007 to be 500% higher than 2006 despite sluggish sales and large losses of the PS3. Also Nintendo's profit it one of the highest in the company's history (perhaps highest?). And Microsoft's numbers are ok but this year they're on track to reach 17-18 billion in profit (compared to the 12.6 for 2006 - you misplaced 600 million in profit in your numbers), that goes to show you the differences that years can make. And GE, well they had double digit profit growth the last two years in a row, 20 billion is a record for them. But since you seemed to pick a company out of random why didn't you choose Exxon which had 40 billion in profit last year?

 


 Why didn't I pick ExxonMobile? Yes, they make money but they only have 1 product, oil. GE on the other hand has a larger variety of products than most countries.

 My point was every Sony fanboy seems to think Sony is taking over the world, they are the world's biggest company, and that they have their foot in more markets than anyone else. While Sony is doing a pretty good job, they pale in comparison to the sheer GE empire.  It would be interesting to see them enter the console market, it isn't entirly impossible.



I haven't read this whole topic, but since on the topic of Sony needing to change their game plan, they might as well change how they make their Blu-Ray discs while they're at it.

-edit-

And just to save myself from the horrible backlash I'm sure I'm going to get, I'm half serious. half joking here.  This does sound like it could be a problem, but it's only source is from a forum and nowhere else so could be not so much of a problem. 



leo-j said:
Sony is making more money than nintendo and microsoft combined,vaio noteboks/desktops,HD TV'S,hit movies(spideramn 3 for one)etc..they are still selling alot of ps2's.Sony has a plan, they know whats wrong with the ps3, and the korean ps3 sales were better than 360 sales and wii sales.They can cut the price sure they will lose money,but the ps3 will be succesful in the long run.

$449.99-60gb ps3
$549.99-80gb ps3

Those prices along with (game of the year) heavenly sword, will make the ps3 succesful period.

somehow you sounded too opimistic. =))

but yeah, ps3 will do just fine, because ps3 is a must have console:

for racing sims fans - GT5, F1

for Team ICo games fans - 2 Team Ico projects

for Tekken fans - Tekken 6

for MGS fans - MGS4

for FF fans - FFXIII, FFXIIIv

for turricane fans - factor 5 turricane

for god of war fans - gow3

for kh fans - kingdom hears 3

for z.o.e. fans - z.o.e. 3

and so on. :)

 

M$ won`t get every ps title. Why? because when FFXIII, MGS4, GT5, KZ2, G3, 8days, LBP, Uncharted, Tekken6 will be released, PS3 will have over 10 mln. user base, while M$ in best way 20 mln. in worst 15 mln.

And 10 mln. vs 15 mln. doesn`t look so scaring like 3.5 mln. vs 10 mln. =))



Every 5 seconds on earth one child dies from hunger...

2009.04.30 - PS3 will OUTSELL x360 atleast by the middle of 2010. Japan+Europe > NA.


Gran Turismo 3 - 1,06 mln. in 3 weeks with around 4 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Gran Turismo 4 - 1,16 mln. with 18 mln. PS2 on the launch.

Final Fantasy X - around 2 mln. with 5 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Final Fantasy X-2 - 2.4 mln. with 12 mln. PS2 on the launch.

 

1.8 mln. PS3 today(2008.01.17) in Japan. Now(2009.04.30) 3.16 mln. PS3 were sold in Japan.
PS3 will reach 4 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 25k.

PS3 may reach 5 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 50k.
PS2 2001 vs PS3 2008 sales numbers =) + New games released in Japan by 2009 that passed 100k so far

CrazzyMan said:
leo-j said:
Sony is making more money than nintendo and microsoft combined,vaio noteboks/desktops,HD TV'S,hit movies(spideramn 3 for one)etc..they are still selling alot of ps2's.Sony has a plan, they know whats wrong with the ps3, and the korean ps3 sales were better than 360 sales and wii sales.They can cut the price sure they will lose money,but the ps3 will be succesful in the long run.

$449.99-60gb ps3
$549.99-80gb ps3

Those prices along with (game of the year) heavenly sword, will make the ps3 succesful period.

somehow you sounded too opimistic. =))

but yeah, ps3 will do just fine, because ps3 is a must have console:

for racing sims fans - GT5, F1

for Team ICo games fans - 2 Team Ico projects

for Tekken fans - Tekken 6

for MGS fans - MGS4

for FF fans - FFXIII, FFXIIIv

for turricane fans - factor 5 turricane

for god of war fans - gow3

for kh fans - kingdom hears 3

for z.o.e. fans - z.o.e. 3

and so on. :)

 

M$ won`t get every ps title. Why? because when FFXIII, MGS4, GT5, KZ2, G3, 8days, LBP, Uncharted, Tekken6 will be released, PS3 will have over 10 mln. user base, while M$ in best way 20 mln. in worst 15 mln.

And 10 mln. vs 15 mln. doesn`t look so scaring like 3.5 mln. vs 10 mln. =))


turricane? you had me except for that one...oh, factor 5...well, then, whatever they call it i guess...i would have said factor 5 fans, but whatever, heh.  is that an old protect redone?

btw, expect to get bashed.



windbane said:
CrazzyMan said:
leo-j said:
Sony is making more money than nintendo and microsoft combined,vaio noteboks/desktops,HD TV'S,hit movies(spideramn 3 for one)etc..they are still selling alot of ps2's.Sony has a plan, they know whats wrong with the ps3, and the korean ps3 sales were better than 360 sales and wii sales.They can cut the price sure they will lose money,but the ps3 will be succesful in the long run.

$449.99-60gb ps3
$549.99-80gb ps3

Those prices along with (game of the year) heavenly sword, will make the ps3 succesful period.

somehow you sounded too opimistic. =))

but yeah, ps3 will do just fine, because ps3 is a must have console:

for racing sims fans - GT5, F1

for Team ICo games fans - 2 Team Ico projects

for Tekken fans - Tekken 6

for MGS fans - MGS4

for FF fans - FFXIII, FFXIIIv

for turricane fans - factor 5 turricane

for god of war fans - gow3

for kh fans - kingdom hears 3

for z.o.e. fans - z.o.e. 3

and so on. :)

 

M$ won`t get every ps title. Why? because when FFXIII, MGS4, GT5, KZ2, G3, 8days, LBP, Uncharted, Tekken6 will be released, PS3 will have over 10 mln. user base, while M$ in best way 20 mln. in worst 15 mln.

And 10 mln. vs 15 mln. doesn`t look so scaring like 3.5 mln. vs 10 mln. =))


turricane? you had me except for that one...oh, factor 5...well, then, whatever they call it i guess...i would have said factor 5 fans, but whatever, heh. is that an old protect redone?

btw, expect to get bashed.


I'm not going to do much bashing, except to point out that Kingdom Hearts 3 has not been announced for PS3. Square hasn't even announced that any KH game of any kind is coming to any system, in fact. You'd probably be better suited to sticking with games that are definitely coming to the system. 



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/Arkives/Disccopy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D">