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Forums - Gaming - Myth of Metal Gear Solid 4 being too much for xbox 360 to handle...

JOKA_ said:
twesterm said:
Deviation59 said:

Umm, it's been confirmed for many months now that it's actually a 50gb dual-layer Blu-ray Disc and all of the cutscenes are generated in real-time by the game's engine. The audio is only available in standard Dolby Digital so you can't claim the space is wasted by uncompressed audio either.

Complete and utter FAIL.


I don't really want to get involved in the whole pointless MGS4 on 360 argument because it's, well, pointless but I will say this: the cut scenes use in game assetts and are done in engine but they are not real time. They are actual movies and it's pretty easy to tell from when it's playing a movie of in game assetts running in the engine and actually running everything real time.

So no, not complete and utter fail.


 I don't quite understand this, during the cutscenes if you shake the sixaxis controller Snake's camo will revert back to its normal state in real time during the cutscene...wouldn't that make it a real time cutscene, or am I mistaken?


 Yes, twestern...it is in-game and is real time. The camoflauge proves it. Plus, in the briefing of Act II, you can switch to Mk.II (at least I think it's Mk.II) and move around the place. I used it to go spy on sunny playing the PSP. :)

@TheRealMafoo

On the same page :)



PSN: Lone_Canis_Lupus

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starcraft said:
TheRealMafoo said:
 

You can't throw money at the PS3, and magically get more ram. It doesn't work that way :) If the game needs 400 meg, it needs 400 meg. If you could rewrite it to use less, then it didn't need 400 meg :p.

There are scenarios where a game on the 360 can not be done on the PS3. Just like MGS4 can not be done on the 360.

Lets examine that point for a moment.  Assuming for a moment that game couldn't possibly be rewritten to use less than 400 meg of RAM using technology avaliable now or by the end of the generation by even the world's most talented programers, then yes, it could not be done on the PS3.

What exact specification do you believe prevents MGS4 from being reproduced to a quality close enough that it cannot be reasonably picked up by the human eye on the Xbox 360?


I have no idea how MGS4 is developed, but I would guess that many of the lighting and texture passes were done in the CELL before handing them off to the RSX (similar to R&C). When you look at the quality of most of the textures, lighting, and resolution all this is rendered at, with never a slowdown, I don't think it's posable on the 360. At least I have never seen a game on the 360 that achieves it, so I have no reason to think it's posable.

The game also has a huge draw distance and incredible sound (sound is not cpu free, great sound takes cycles to produce).

The opening to act 2 I thought was a live action movie, until snake showed up. It's just incredible. 



Feylic said:
Producer Ryan Payton says that mgs4 is using almost all the space on a dual layer disc in this interview, at about 3:30

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/35170.html . Just to clear it up.

HE didn't explain how a game that had a four year development cycle switched to dual layer six months ago and somehow managed to double in size in that small period of time.........

Actually at the end of the interview he says something interesting.  "We love the Xbox 360 and we think its a great machine, you know, Microsoft's a great company.  Its just our focus was to get this out on the PS3, take advantage of the hardware and get this out as quickly as possible."  

Like I said.  We don't have to debate whether there are any technical obstructions to a 360 port, we need to debate whether Konami will spend enough on the port to overcome them. 

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
TheRealMafoo said:

You can't throw money at the PS3, and magically get more ram. It doesn't work that way :) If the game needs 400 meg, it needs 400 meg. If you could rewrite it to use less, then it didn't need 400 meg :p.

There are scenarios where a game on the 360 can not be done on the PS3. Just like MGS4 can not be done on the 360.


 Developers could sacrifice speed greatly by using the extra memory needed from the hard drive. Isn't that to main purpose of RAM, to be a quick way to access memory? I'm no programmer, but you could probably work around the RAM by using the hard drive....at the cost of speed of course.


You can use a HD to cache parts of ram, but you can not replace ram with a hard drive. It's just too slow. So for example, if I was doing some sort of well known AI approach (one that could not be easily optimized, as it already has been) to calculate how to move, and in ram it takes a tenth of a second, it might take 30 seconds from a hard drive. That kind of speed loss would make it useless.



The game in the BD is 50GB, but aren't PS3's games using doble space cause drive's speed?



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TheRealMafoo said:
Lone_Canis_Lupus said:
TheRealMafoo said:

You can't throw money at the PS3, and magically get more ram. It doesn't work that way :) If the game needs 400 meg, it needs 400 meg. If you could rewrite it to use less, then it didn't need 400 meg :p.

There are scenarios where a game on the 360 can not be done on the PS3. Just like MGS4 can not be done on the 360.


 Developers could sacrifice speed greatly by using the extra memory needed from the hard drive. Isn't that to main purpose of RAM, to be a quick way to access memory? I'm no programmer, but you could probably work around the RAM by using the hard drive....at the cost of speed of course.


You can use a HD to cache parts of ram, but you can not replace ram with a hard drive. It's just too slow. So for example, if I was doing some sort of well known AI approach (one that could not be easily optimized, as it already has been) to calculate how to move, and in ram it takes a tenth of a second, it might take 30 seconds from a hard drive. That kind of speed loss would make it useless.


 True, that's why I said "sacrifice speed greatly." ;) It's not impossible to port to the PS3, but with the speed loss, it wouldn't be practical at all.



PSN: Lone_Canis_Lupus

TheRealMafoo said:
Username2324 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

If you write a game that takes 100% advantage of the 360, you would be hard pressed to match it on the PS3, and vise versa.

I disagree, the only reason why you'd be "hard pressed" to match a 360 game on the PS3 is money, because as you stated, the two have their strengths, and it would take alot of money to convert it the PS3, and is the reason why so many ports look worse on the PS3.

 


If I wrote a puzzle game on the 360 that needed 400 meg of system ram, and 112 meg of video memory, you could not duplicate that game on the PS3.

The 360 has 512 meg of ram to share across either system or video (meaning I can divvy that up any way I want). The PS3 has 256 fixed for each.


Maybe you can, you could use the harddrive for caching data (sort of like virtual memory).

IMO for a console bandwidth and processing power are far more crucial factors, 512 MB is a lot of memory to work with for a console (not running an inefficinet bulky desktop OS and better oppertunities for optimization) if your game isn't a PC port. Just look at the NeoGeo with its:

  • Main Memory (used directly by 68K): 64 KB
  • Main Video memory : 74 KB
    • Video Memory: 64 KB
    • Palette Memory : 8 KB
    • Fast Video RAM : 2 KB
  • Sound Memory (used directly by Z80): 2 KB

and compare the games which run on 1990 PCs with many many times the amount of RAM.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

LoL This is EPIC fail. =))

1) MGS4 cut scenes are all on ENGINE, you can`t compress that. =))

2) x360 use only 7GB data of dvd, rest are for security. MGS4 takes 46,6GB, so.. in that case you will need ~10 DVD, BECAUSE you will need to DUBLICATE data, so ~2GB same data + 5 GB new = 10 DVDs, LOL.
Or how you are going to lesten to music on disc 5 from disc 1? =)) Same about textures. =]

3) x360 doesn`t have HDD in every SKU, that means:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PTkbvZpsOfA
LOOK at walls and boxes, LOL.

4) There is SO MANY advertising of antiM$ products in MGS4... ))



Every 5 seconds on earth one child dies from hunger...

2009.04.30 - PS3 will OUTSELL x360 atleast by the middle of 2010. Japan+Europe > NA.


Gran Turismo 3 - 1,06 mln. in 3 weeks with around 4 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Gran Turismo 4 - 1,16 mln. with 18 mln. PS2 on the launch.

Final Fantasy X - around 2 mln. with 5 mln. PS2 on the launch.
Final Fantasy X-2 - 2.4 mln. with 12 mln. PS2 on the launch.

 

1.8 mln. PS3 today(2008.01.17) in Japan. Now(2009.04.30) 3.16 mln. PS3 were sold in Japan.
PS3 will reach 4 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 25k.

PS3 may reach 5 mln. in Japan by the end of 2009 with average weekly sales 50k.
PS2 2001 vs PS3 2008 sales numbers =) + New games released in Japan by 2009 that passed 100k so far

TheRealMafoo said:
 

I have no idea how MGS4 is developed, but I would guess that many of the lighting and texture passes were done in the CELL before handing them off to the RSX (similar to R&C). When you look at the quality of most of the textures, lighting, and resolution all this is rendered at, with never a slowdown, I don't think it's posable on the 360. At least I have never seen a game on the 360 that achieves it, so I have no reason to think it's posable.

The game also has a huge draw distance and incredible sound (sound is not cpu free, great sound takes cycles to produce).

The opening to act 2 I thought was a live action movie, until snake showed up. It's just incredible.

That first line is what you need to focus on.

Someone, I think it was Selnor, was saying that the game actually uses some last-gen textures, I think he used some glass breaking as an example.  As the OP of this thread said, the lighting isn't particularly dynamic.  If there is one thing Halo 3 showed us, its that the Xbox 360 can do lighting like its nobodies business.  Come to think of it, it also showed us that draw distance isn't a problem for the Microsoft console.

But you have highlighted ONE area where its likely sacrifices would have to be made on the Xbox 360.  7.1 audio would come down to 5.1

I don't doubt that MGS4 is incredible to a fan of the genre/series, but thats no reason to run off on an irrational tangent and start declaring the PS3 is the only console that could do it.  The main thing we have seen this generation (besides the fact Nintendo's still got it) is that there is no signficant differential between the power of the PS3 and the power of the Xbox 360.

IF we see any differential, it will be small, will show up at the end of the generation, and will only be seen in the first party/second party titles put out by Sony, due to the PS3's lack of viability RELATIVE to the PS2 shortening its tail. 

 



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

@Disolitude

I posted right after I read the your opening post, and I have not read one single other post.
Your points are valid, and you're one of the creditable posters that are the reason why I keep joining the site (n4g anyone? God...)

Not a single wrong and false word in there. NOTHING that 360 can't handle.
Still I wish it remains a PS3 exclusive.
Competition is what makes us the happier gamers of all generations. The quality of the exclusive products is almost sky high at the time. And i wish it keeps that way.

(Strictly Personal Opinion. About MGS4 visuals. Nothing impressive concerning lightning effects, impressive animation, but sometimes it randomly fails, non existent physics, but overall the game rocks!)