Not much I bet. Konami is for the ps3 and doesnt like the 360. I bet they might have done it for free. They probably realized makign it an exclusive will slowly get more peopel 2 biuy a ps3 and then the ps3 will win and teh crap 360 will such.

How much do u think Microsoft payed Epic for Gears of War one and Gears 2, BUT WHATS THIS Gears 3 is coming out for the ps3 ooooo that must be horrible news for u 360 fannies

starcraft said: LongLiveTheBeatles said: But if Hideo decided to jump through hoops in order to please a userbase less interested in the game, would it still be a good investment? With porting costs, several discs and poorer sound quality, it obviously becomes less profitable which makes me wonder if it would be a good investment to begin with. Hideo wouldn't allow it and you have to keep in mind he is a perfectionist. I wouldn't want and he wouldn't want to sacrifice audio quality therefore the game would still be on 8 discs. After all, this generation is all about hi-def and if developers are lowering their standards to meet system requirements then it almost defeats the purpose of creating more powerful hardware. As for languages on the same discs, I leave you with this quote, "Unfortunately because of disc space, we don’t have the space to include other languages, other voice over files for the respective versions. So the Japanese version’s not gonna have English voiceover, and the North American and European versions won’t have Japanese voiceover." - Hideo Kojima I believe your quote is from prior to the double-sided disk announcement. As for what Kojima would allow?  Irrelevant, its Konami executives that make those decisions, just check out the Orange Box port to PS3 to know how these things work. With the rest of your post you completely missed the point of this thread.  Based on market forces alone, it would have netted Konami far more profit to simultaneously release MGS4 on the 360 as well.  Its not about whether Konami will NOW undergo the relatively meanial task of porting it, its about how much Sony paid to stop that simultaneous release. Any guesses?

 My reply was completely pertinent to your post preceding it. I touched on why it wouldn't be profitable to release it on the 360 and the fact that it wouldn't be as good an experience as the PS3 version. Can you at least have the courtesy read and respond to my post legitimately. 

I have another quote from the same article exclaiming that "In a Konami retailers meeting yesterday, it was exposed that the game would be produced on a 50GB Blu-ray disc." 

Kojima is the visionary and project lead, therefore what he says does go because that game is whatever he wants it to be. There is too much prestige surrounding that name therefore he basically has 100% jurisdiction over anything related to his game.

Andir said: starcraft said: Nonetheless, there are numerous threads open about Blu-Ray disk read and seek times, please use one of them if you wish to argue the toss, as this thread is about Sony paying for MGS4.   Yet you keep spouting false hardware related propaganda? Pot. Kettle. Black.

I don't believe it was false at all, and I only mentioned it to refute someone else who claimed that MGS4 was technically impossible on the Xbox 360, despite the fact it is not a graphically intensive game.

 

LongLiveTheBeatles said: My reply was completely pertinent to your post preceding it. I touched on why it wouldn't be profitable to release it on the 360 and the fact that it wouldn't be as good an experience as the PS3 version. Can you at least have the courtesy read and respond to my post legitimately. I have another quote from the same article exclaiming that "In a Konami retailers meeting yesterday, it was exposed that the game would be produced on a 50GB Blu-ray disc." Kojima is the visionary and project lead, therefore what he says does go because that game is whatever he wants it to be. There is too much prestige surrounding that name therefore he basically has 100% jurisdiction over anything related to his game.

Please don't try and distract from my arguments buy falsely claiming to be misinterpreted.

I want you too look very closely at the quote you have there.  Does it say MGS4 is 50gb?  No.  It says that MGS4 will be on a 50gb blu-ray disk, also known as a double-sided Blu-Ray disk.  That decision was made just a few months before the games launch meaning either:

a) Its a publicity stunt or

b) They only just couldn't fit the game on 25GB AND its a publicity stunt.

Either way, the worst case scenario is the game is just over 30GB with all the duplicated data, uncompressed audio etc included.  Suddenly a billion disks is sounding unlikely for the 360 version huh?

As for the last paragraph, that comes off a little naive.  The guys at Valve are just as visionary as Kojima, but they didn't get a say in whether EA did a port of the Orange Box.  At the end of the day Kojima doesn't have to work on something he doesn't want to, but he doesn't have jack to do with whether Konami puts a few guys on a 360 port.

MGS4 isn't exclusive to the PS3 for technical reasons or because of Kojima's mad love for Sony.

Its because one way or another, Sony paid for it.

*cue you claiming I'm irrational and your misunderstood and storming off in a huff* 

 

starcraft said: Andir said: starcraft said: Nonetheless, there are numerous threads open about Blu-Ray disk read and seek times, please use one of them if you wish to argue the toss, as this thread is about Sony paying for MGS4.   Yet you keep spouting false hardware related propaganda? Pot. Kettle. Black.   I don't believe it was false at all, and I only mentioned it to refute someone else who claimed that MGS4 was technically impossible on the Xbox 360, despite the fact it is not a graphically intensive game.

What you believe and what is true are two different things.  Use your noggin for a second here.  Data is stored on the discs as binary data.  There is no "special packet" involved here as you claim.  You are going to get the same transfer speed at the same point in a disc.  On DVD that speed gets faster as you move along the surface.  BD ROM acts more like a hard disk where the disc spins at a constant velocity and the drive doesn't have to wait for spin-up/spin-down as you would with regular DVD, thus decreasing the seek times since the head only has to move to the appropriate spot and start reading.  It's basic physics here.  DVDs have to wait for the disc to reach an appropriate speed.  If you have a game that fills all 9G of a DVD, your seeks times are going to go all to hell if you can't duplicate some of that info.  You'd have the laser all over that disk reading in uniform textures, level data, and whatever from all parts of the disc.  This is why they duplicate textures in each level and keep these within the same area on a disc.  Sure, you could probably squeeze MGS onto a DVD9, but your load times would suffer, your disc would constantly be spinning up and down to load the data all over the disc and you'd hate every minute of the loading.  But let me tell you, those first few levels that they crammed on the outter track with the commonly used textures and models would be pretty fast... but as you progress through the game, your load times would go in the crapper.

Andir said: What you believe and what is true are two different things. Use your noggin for a second here. Data is stored on the discs as binary data. There is no "special packet" involved here as you claim. You are going to get the same transfer speed at the same point in a disc. On DVD that speed gets faster as you move along the surface. BD ROM acts more like a hard disk where the disc spins at a constant velocity and the drive doesn't have to wait for spin-up/spin-down as you would with regular DVD, thus decreasing the seek times since the head only has to move to the appropriate spot and start reading. It's basic physics here. DVDs have to wait for the disc to reach an appropriate speed. If you have a game that fills all 9G of a DVD, your seeks times are going to go all to hell if you can't duplicate some of that info. You'd have the laser all over that disk reading in uniform textures, level data, and whatever from all parts of the disc. This is why they duplicate textures in each level and keep these within the same area on a disc. Sure, you could probably squeeze MGS onto a DVD9, but your load times would suffer, your disc would constantly be spinning up and down to load the data all over the disc and you'd hate every minute of the loading. But let me tell you, those first few levels that they crammed on the outter track with the commonly used textures and models would be pretty fast... but as you progress through the game, your load times would go in the crapper.

Thats the key point for me there.  Your assuming a 9gb game to get your average.  At most a game has a few GB of textures, and the games engine is already streamed to the processors. 

You put your finger on it in this post though.  MGS4 could probably be squeezed onto a single disk with crappy load times.  All I've argued in the entire thread is that the game could be put on TWO disks without any major performance lost other than 5.1 audio.  Do you agree with that?  Because if you do, our argument is resolved? 

 

starcraft said: LongLiveTheBeatles said: My reply was completely pertinent to your post preceding it. I touched on why it wouldn't be profitable to release it on the 360 and the fact that it wouldn't be as good an experience as the PS3 version. Can you at least have the courtesy read and respond to my post legitimately. I have another quote from the same article exclaiming that "In a Konami retailers meeting yesterday, it was exposed that the game would be produced on a 50GB Blu-ray disc." Kojima is the visionary and project lead, therefore what he says does go because that game is whatever he wants it to be. There is too much prestige surrounding that name therefore he basically has 100% jurisdiction over anything related to his game. Please don't try and distract from my arguments buy falsely claiming to be misinterpreted. I want you too look very closely at the quote you have there.  Does it say MGS4 is 50gb?  No.  It says that MGS4 will be on a 50gb blu-ray disk, also known as a double-sided Blu-Ray disk.  That decision was made just a few months before the games launch meaning either: a) Its a publicity stunt or b) They only just couldn't fit the game on 25GB AND its a publicity stunt. Either way, the worst case scenario is the game is just over 30GB with all the duplicated data, uncompressed audio etc included.  Suddenly a billion disks is sounding unlikely for the 360 version huh? As for the last paragraph, that comes off a little naive.  The guys at Valve are just as visionary as Kojima, but they didn't get a say in whether EA did a port of the Orange Box.  At the end of the day Kojima doesn't have to work on something he doesn't want to, but he doesn't have jack to do with whether Konami puts a few guys on a 360 port. MGS4 isn't exclusive to the PS3 for technical reasons or because of Kojima's mad love for Sony. Its because one way or another, Sony paid for it. *cue you claiming I'm irrational and your misunderstood and storming off in a huff*

Does this quote suffice?: "Kojima complained that a few features had to be cut from the game so it would fit on a duel layer Blu-ray disc. As format fanatics already know, that means the game takes up nearly 50 gigabytes of space."

I'm done talking about space because I could easily pull up a thousand other articles just like that one and I don't think every site saying the same thing has the same agenda. Accept it. You are going by your word, while every source in the media disagrees with your thesis. If parts of the game had to be cut then there obviously is no duplicated data and I have already proven that multiple languages will not be shipped on the same disc.

This means that the game undeniably is only possible on the PS3 because of blu-ray; contradicting your preconceived notions. If you would like MGS4 on nine discs then you can have fun because unlike you, I have both systems therefore I can pick and choose which version I want. The PS3 port would have been better any way you look at it and profit would have quickly diminished upon the publics discovery that MGS4 for the 360 came on 9 discs. How many gamers looking at that package would find it appealing? Not only that but you also have to factor in manufacturing costs for extra discs scratching off even more profit.

Konami at that point wouldn't port the game to the 360 because it would simply be bad business, which would remove the need for Sony to do any money hatting in the first place.

I'm wrong on things all of the time and it's OK to be wrong every now and then. But you stated in your first post that you were completly speculating. If you really want the game that bad then just get a PS3, otherwise it shouldn't concern you at all and no thread should have been made in the first place. 

 

starcraft said: Andir said: What you believe and what is true are two different things. Use your noggin for a second here. Data is stored on the discs as binary data. There is no "special packet" involved here as you claim. You are going to get the same transfer speed at the same point in a disc. On DVD that speed gets faster as you move along the surface. BD ROM acts more like a hard disk where the disc spins at a constant velocity and the drive doesn't have to wait for spin-up/spin-down as you would with regular DVD, thus decreasing the seek times since the head only has to move to the appropriate spot and start reading. It's basic physics here. DVDs have to wait for the disc to reach an appropriate speed. If you have a game that fills all 9G of a DVD, your seeks times are going to go all to hell if you can't duplicate some of that info. You'd have the laser all over that disk reading in uniform textures, level data, and whatever from all parts of the disc. This is why they duplicate textures in each level and keep these within the same area on a disc. Sure, you could probably squeeze MGS onto a DVD9, but your load times would suffer, your disc would constantly be spinning up and down to load the data all over the disc and you'd hate every minute of the loading. But let me tell you, those first few levels that they crammed on the outter track with the commonly used textures and models would be pretty fast... but as you progress through the game, your load times would go in the crapper. Thats the key point for me there.  Your assuming a 9gb game to get your average.  At most a game has a few GB of textures, and the games engine is already streamed to the processors.  You put your finger on it in this post though.  MGS4 could probably be squeezed onto a single disk with crappy load times.  All I've argued in the entire thread is that the game could be put on TWO disks without any major performance lost other than 5.1 audio.  Do you agree with that?  Because if you do, our argument is resolved?

 No, you and I could not decide that unless you have access to the MGS disc right now and can determine how many duplicated models and textures exist and how large the high quality sound files are.  And, no.  You can't compare it to other games.  If you wanted to do that, I'd show you Vanguard where the models alone are 15+ GB while the textures are roughly 10GB.  It would really depend on how much variety is in the game.  Sure you could make a terribly mundane game with few textures and repetitive dungeons (*cough* Oblivion *cough*) that looks simply "OK" after you start seeing the same models and textures re-used a million times, but again... neither of us really know what's on that disc.  You are just guessing.

LongLiveTheBeatles said: Does this quote suffice?: "Kojima complained that a few features had to be cut from the game so it would fit on a duel layer Blu-ray disc. As format fanatics already know, that means the game takes up nearly 50 gigabytes of space." I'm done talking about space because I could easily pull up a thousand other articles just like that one and I don't think every site saying the same thing has the same agenda. Accept it. You are going by your word, while every source in the media disagrees with your thesis. If parts of the game had to be cut then there obviously is no duplicated data and I have already proven that multiple languages will not be shipped on the same disc. This means that the game undeniably is only possible on the PS3 because of blu-ray; contradicting your preconceived notions. If you would like MGS4 on nine discs then you can have fun because unlike you, I have both systems therefore I can pick and choose which version I want. The PS3 port would have been better any way you look at it and profit would have quickly diminished upon the publics discovery that MGS4 for the 360 came on 9 discs. How many gamers looking at that package would find it appealing? Not only that but you also have to factor in manufacturing costs for extra discs scratching off even more profit. Konami at that point wouldn't port the game to the 360 because it would simply be bad business, which would remove the need for Sony to do any money hatting in the first place. I'm wrong on things all of the time and it's OK to be wrong every now and then. But you stated in your first post that you were completly speculating. If you really want the game that bad then just get a PS3, otherwise it shouldn't concern you at all and no thread should have been made in the first place.

Care to provide a link to that quote?

And afterwards, care to provide an explanation of how just six months from launch the game was just "pushing the 25GB mark?"

You clearly didn't read what I wrote above.  All major PS3 games have duplicated data where their 360 counterparts do not, in order to reduce seek times.  By definition, a game on a Blu-Ray disk will inevitable take up more space than an equivelantly performing game on a DVD9 disk.

As for your nine disk crap?  You realize by the time the 30GB PS3 version is cut down due to no duplicated data and compressed audio it would EASILY be under 27GB (meaning three DVD's) but PROBABLY be under 18GB meaning two DVD's?  You realize that if the game took 9 360 disks it would be 81GB meaning it would take three Blu-Ray disks (Accounting for the need to duplicate data for equivelant performance)? 

 

Andir said: No, you and I could not decide that unless you have access to the MGS disc right now and can determine how many duplicated models and textures exist and how large the high quality sound files are. And, no. You can't compare it to other games. If you wanted to do that, I'd show you Vanguard where the models alone are 15+ GB while the textures are roughly 10GB. It would really depend on how much variety is in the game. Sure you could make a terribly mundane game with few textures and repetitive dungeons (*cough* Oblivion *cough*) that looks simply "OK" after you start seeing the same models and textures re-used a million times, but again... neither of us really know what's on that disc. You are just guessing.

I agree that much of this thread (hell, as I acknowledged in the OP, just about all of it) is guesswork.  But there is a difference between educated and uneducated guesses.  I reckon basing MGS4 guesses on the structure of other high-profile PS3 exclusives is fair enough.

Longlivethebeatles guess had the 360 version of MGS4 on 9 disks, so I'm somewhat closer than him lol.