One thing everyone is assuming is that the casuals don't simply get bored and the market shrinks back to the hardcores again.

Casuals are fickle, they get bored easily. They don't really care for any console or brand, they don't read magazines, don't read websites etc. Nothing is stopping them simply getting bored and going back to doing whatever they did for entertainment before they got a PS2, Wii, DS etc.

If all 3 console makers go for casuals next time around, they could all be going for a market that no longer exists or isn't as interested as it once was.

p.s. This is NOT a "Wii is a fad argument", I am saying Gaming itself could be a fad - started with PSOne, grew with PS2 and now with the Wii could have reached it's maxim.

p.p.s hate the casual label, prefer the term "non traditional gamer" instead.

I think you can make the argument that most of the growth the industry has seen in the Playstation and PS2 generations were the result of "Casual" (for their day) gamers entering into the market because new games that appealed to them were suddenly available. Why didn't these new gamers leave the market and go back to what they were doing before the Playstation and PS2 launched?

People are still making far too many assumptions on who these "Casual" gamers are, what their motivations for playing games are, and then using their assumptions to make arguments about why they will destroy/leave gaming ...

I'm sorry, I didn't think I had to explain why nintendo games lack diversity. You listed Mario as the platformer game, and paper mario as ARPG and mario kart as the racing game...and smash bros (featuring mario and crew characters) as the fighting game...you forgot aobut Mario Soccer as the sports game.

Oh and we have Warioware as the minigame. Which is like Mario only with a W...very clever.

Also, you must be hanging around a lot of young kids if none of your friends like the challenge of Forza 2. I'm not sure that is healthy...

Disolitude: the similarity you're drawing is from the character, not the games. That's not an unfair point, but Nintendo fans (for obvious reasons) don't tend to be the sort of people who care about character/plot in their games. I certainly fit that bill.

For all I care, Mario Kart could be called "Generic Man Kart," the platformer could be "Generic Man Galaxy," the sports "Generic Man Sports." I wouldn't care, because story/plot/character in games are completely irrelevant to me. That's why I didn't like Bioshock very much, why I never played Mass Effect or, for that matter, haven't like any RPGs since I was young, and why I won't end up buying MGS4 even though I think the gameplay in MGS games is quite good; those are games that are heavily driven by story, and I simply don't care for it.

In essence, I absolutely agree that for someone like yourself (who apparently does care about characters/plot in games) having Mario in every game would be annoying, and it's a fair criticism. For someone like myself, whose focus is almost entirely on gameplay, it's completely irrelevant who stars in a game as long as it has compelling game design.

It's personal preferences and taste.

Ah you don't mean by genre, you just mean that all Wii games are kiddy because they use the same word in the title, and some share a few characters.

I think you've explained your view point pretty well in this topic. It's definately become less about what I think of the next console race, and now directly focuses on what I think about you.

You are one of the biggest and most consistant Nintendo hating fanboys lately. Your talking points are weak, and when someone does get one up on you, instead of admitting your mistake, you try to weazle your way out of it with a "controversial" wii-bash or two, in order to change the subject.

I'll address your last post for apperances sake and I hope you don't respond, because why would I fight a battle against and opponent who won't concede defeat no matter how much I win by?

1. Do a poll on this forum and ask how people like Forza 2. I feel it's probably a great game, most average gamers hate. It's very niche. Mario Kart isn't. The most common complaint is "the turning." You call it deep, I call it sim, casuals call it suck.

2. We've established that Nintendo is one of the most diverse software developers genre-wise, and also the best developer review-wise, in any timeframe in which you would be able to cherrypick. So, instead you switch over too the "mario is in too many games" talking point.

Besides the fact that graphics and character sprites are there to help the games sell(which they do) it really affects the actual gameplay very little. The games are very diverse, if you look up the definition.

You also can't leave out Metroid, Wii-Fit, Batallion Wars, Fire Emblem, Disaster, Zelda, Icarus, Pikmin, and even Earthbound back in the day as titles with a not necessarily "mario" feel to them, who also don't contain the plumber at all. For a single software company, that's a very diverse list by itself, not including the plethora of excellent Mario related games.

So, your opinion on the subject is noted, and I've stated my counterargument. That's it. I'm done.

i disagree with your points mainly because your points rely on the market being completely rational, and react the way it should. but no market does. gaming especially. new contenders enter all the time. usually every 3-4 genrations. microsoft have been through 2 generations and have not dominated a single one. it couldn't even outsell the ps2, and it had a year to do so, before the real competition arrived, and one region only ever keeps it alive, which is always the americas. you can't dominate a generation with only one region properly behind you, even if it's the strongest region out of all of them., and it's even starting to lose that region too.

xbox live is a really good service, but it's clear that it's not an essential step in gaming right now in my opinion. why? it has been the best online service for 2 generations, but at this current moment in time, according to vgc, the 360 has the least demand out of all three of the consoles, yet it has the highest rated/most games aswell. i can't help but wonder what those games could have done if they were on a nintendo, or sony platform. yes it is second, but with a years head start. align the launches, and it has sold the slowest LTD. the xbox brand can stay alive, but in my opinion, it will never dominate. this is one market that i think microsoft won't be able to touch.

It doesn't sound like we disagree much, if at all, actually. We agree that new contenders enter all the time (that's why I mentioned Apple. Although we should note that as time goes on, the costs to enter the market increase over time, and thus we will see a gradual slowing of new entrants). We agree that the market isn't always reasonable.

My point was that if the market behaves in a predictable fashion, Microsoft is in the better position to leap frog Nintendo. I then go on to point out that I could make arguments for Sony or Apple, too, because the future is so hard to predict.

So, yeah. If the market is predictable (or, as you put it, people behave in a "completely rational" manner), Microsoft is in a good position, but it's so far in the future than something entirely unpredictable could happen.

We agree? I think?

@Zenofoldor

nice but wrong.. Mario was in Zelda (OoT) through the window in the area where you first meet Zelda.

Haha! +1 to me.

I just find it amazing the concept online, first no one cares, then some Wii hater takes the side of a Wii appreciator and said this is nice B~u~T, which then leads into fodder for every other hater, which then turns into Wii appreciators having to test the statement out and figure... WTF!

Then it leads into a whole thread on why it's really not such a big deal, then it leads into "your just trying to cover it up." then it goes into "oooook, then here, this is why it's not such a big deal." which leads into "cherry picking" which then leads into tangent debates and then everyone shuts up. Until it happens again anyway.

I mean wow.

How about you just stick to facts and keep personal opinions of me out of your posts. I think many things of many people but any time you have an argument with me its coming down to..."oh I know you...you are a wii hater". Its getting kinda boring if you are going to use that as a cop out every time...

@Bodhesatva

I unerstand that completely. Nintendo has lots of franchises that people crave sequels for...plus if mario kart was called "Generic man Kart" it would sell 200,000 copies, so its good they use Mario.

My only probelm is when guys like Zenfoldor start claiming Nintendo is at the edge of software development with its titles and their diversity...while all of them have the same sound effects, same or similar game engines, no voice actors, no real story development or a sense of timeline. They just keep churning them out over and over...and now supposedly they are the market leader in the videogame industry? Reading some early posts on this topic, apparently Sony and Microsoft have to copy nintendo next gen to stay relevant...

well, since you put it that that way, yeah i guess so!