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Forums - Gaming - The Uncanny Valley - A future problem for gaming?

Rath on 21 May 2008
windbane said:
 

Games will just do what movies do. It's not a big deal. I understand the concept, I'm just one that doesn't think it's a real issue. If you've ever seen a CG human face that is perfectly symmetrical, I think it's easy to see the unrealness of it. Generally people look more attractive the more symmetric they are, but no one is perfectly symmetrical, so when you see a fake image of perfection you can tell something isn't quite right. The solution is rather simple, though, so that's not really an issue. I think most of the time that this term comes up is when something is supposed to look realistic but doesn't, and that's just a matter of improving everything...this near-perfetion-but-not isn't a problem, imo.


Movies use real actors. Games don't realistically have that option.

Also the symmetrical face is just one example and an easy to solve one. In many cases it quite simply isn't that simple to improve it past the point of the uncanny valley. Eyes are a huge one, they are hugely important in human interactions and are incredibaly hard to make convincing to a human. Another major one is facial expressions.

 

Edit: What animated movies have extremely realistic graphics? Enough to say that they have definately passed the uncanny valley?

Edit2: Heavenly Sword graphics are not that realistic. The characters in it are so clearly non-human that the uncanny valley wouldn't apply.



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The Ghost of RubangB on 21 May 2008

I think you guys are using the term wrong. It's a continuum. As something looks more human, it looks "better," until a point, then there's a giant dip where it's super disgusting, THAT is the valley. After that, it gets better. Getting good enough to get back out of the valley is the hard part.

We've had shit in the valley for a very very long time. It's disgusting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley



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makingmusic476 on 21 May 2008
Rath said:
windbane said:
 

Games will just do what movies do. It's not a big deal. I understand the concept, I'm just one that doesn't think it's a real issue. If you've ever seen a CG human face that is perfectly symmetrical, I think it's easy to see the unrealness of it. Generally people look more attractive the more symmetric they are, but no one is perfectly symmetrical, so when you see a fake image of perfection you can tell something isn't quite right. The solution is rather simple, though, so that's not really an issue. I think most of the time that this term comes up is when something is supposed to look realistic but doesn't, and that's just a matter of improving everything...this near-perfetion-but-not isn't a problem, imo.


Movies use real actors. Games don't realistically have that option.

Also the symmetrical face is just one example and an easy to solve one. In many cases it quite simply isn't that simple to improve it past the point of the uncanny valley. Eyes are a huge one, they are hugely important in human interactions and are incredibaly hard to make convincing to a human. Another major one is facial expressions.

 

Edit: What animated movies have extremely realistic graphics? Enough to say that they have definately passed the uncanny valley?

Edit2: Heavenly Sword graphics are not that realistic. The characters in it are so clearly non-human that the uncanny valley wouldn't apply.


 Beowulf.  80% of my time watching that movie I was convinced the characters were real.



Rath on 21 May 2008
The Ghost of RubangB said:
I think you guys are using the term wrong. It's a continuum. As something looks more human, it looks "better," until a point, then there's a giant dip where it's super disgusting, THAT is the valley. After that, it gets better. Getting good enough to get back out of the valley is the hard part.

We've had shit in the valley for a very very long time. It's disgusting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

 Isn't that what I said?

 Its what I meant at least.

 

@Music. I haven't actually watched Beowulf to be honest. Doesn't it use motion capture however? That is something games cannot fully do. 



FaRmLaNd on 21 May 2008

The real stuff comes after we hit that point. Realistic representation is boring. Look at the Greeks, once they hit that level of realism with their sculptures (they had this goal for a long time) they quickly abandoned it for more stylised statues. I'm confident that once gaming reaches that point we'll start to get really creative and the real innovation will happen.

 

BTW live action film isn't a great exception to use when you argue against it, as films star actors. 3d Animation is a completely different matter though.



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windbane on 21 May 2008
makingmusic476 said:
Rath said:
windbane said:
 

Games will just do what movies do. It's not a big deal. I understand the concept, I'm just one that doesn't think it's a real issue. If you've ever seen a CG human face that is perfectly symmetrical, I think it's easy to see the unrealness of it. Generally people look more attractive the more symmetric they are, but no one is perfectly symmetrical, so when you see a fake image of perfection you can tell something isn't quite right. The solution is rather simple, though, so that's not really an issue. I think most of the time that this term comes up is when something is supposed to look realistic but doesn't, and that's just a matter of improving everything...this near-perfetion-but-not isn't a problem, imo.


Movies use real actors. Games don't realistically have that option.

Also the symmetrical face is just one example and an easy to solve one. In many cases it quite simply isn't that simple to improve it past the point of the uncanny valley. Eyes are a huge one, they are hugely important in human interactions and are incredibaly hard to make convincing to a human. Another major one is facial expressions.

 

Edit: What animated movies have extremely realistic graphics? Enough to say that they have definately passed the uncanny valley?

Edit2: Heavenly Sword graphics are not that realistic. The characters in it are so clearly non-human that the uncanny valley wouldn't apply.


 Beowulf.  80% of my time watching that movie I was convinced the characters were real.


Angelina Jolie was certainly real to certain parts of my body... Also, I obviously didn't mean live-action movies. I thought that was kinda obvious. Games can use that as well, and motion capturing already helps a lot with realistic facial expressions and animations. It's really not an issue.



windbane on 21 May 2008
Rath said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
I think you guys are using the term wrong. It's a continuum. As something looks more human, it looks "better," until a point, then there's a giant dip where it's super disgusting, THAT is the valley. After that, it gets better. Getting good enough to get back out of the valley is the hard part.

We've had shit in the valley for a very very long time. It's disgusting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

 Isn't that what I said?

 Its what I meant at least.

 

@Music. I haven't actually watched Beowulf to be honest. Doesn't it use motion capture however? That is something games cannot fully do. 


Huh? Of course they can. Sports games have used them for years. Heavenly Sword was completely motion captured, and so was Uncharted.



famousringo on 21 May 2008
makingmusic476 said:
Did you guys see the original tech demo for Heavy Rain? Talk about uncanny valley material. Ugh.

Yes. That video was creepy as all hell. That girl looks like a freak.

 The Final Fantasy movie on the other hand, didn't bother me at all. Why Square's highly-realistic cast was impressive and that girl is wierd is something that I wish I could put my finger on.



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sinha on 21 May 2008
makingmusic476 said:
Did you guys see the original tech demo for Heavy Rain? Talk about uncanny valley material. Ugh.
The animations make the entire thing very awkward and down right freaky, imo.  The eyes don't help either. 

Eyes?  I think the eyes look fine.  The freaky part is the entire mouth area, it just doesn't move right when she talks.



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Rath on 21 May 2008
windbane said:
Rath said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
I think you guys are using the term wrong. It's a continuum. As something looks more human, it looks "better," until a point, then there's a giant dip where it's super disgusting, THAT is the valley. After that, it gets better. Getting good enough to get back out of the valley is the hard part.

We've had shit in the valley for a very very long time. It's disgusting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Isn't that what I said?

Its what I meant at least.

 

@Music. I haven't actually watched Beowulf to be honest. Doesn't it use motion capture however? That is something games cannot fully do.


Huh? Of course they can. Sports games have used them for years. Heavenly Sword was completely motion captured, and so was Uncharted.


 No because full motion capture would be entirely linear. They can use motion capture for individual animations but they cannot use motion capture in the way films use it.