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luinil said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
luinil said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
luinil said:
The thing that gets me the most about global warming is the ENTIRE attitude that we can change anything in this world. We are a speck compared to the grand scheme of nature. The world has ways of dealing with problems like heat and cold. The entire system was setup so that we cannot stop it from happening. The arrogance of people to think that changing a lightbulb will mean one iota of difference to the "health" of the planet! The absolute pompous egos they must have. I cannot change when summer gets here, nor how hot it will be. No one can. Everything they see as a "problem" is either a coincidence of timing, or a non-problem.

Who is to say what the ideal temperature is? O, that is right, the scientists... those same people who thought that global cooling was happening in the 70s. Did you know that there were civilizations (likely colonies) of Vikings on Greenland? They grew crops there. Now, how warm would it have to be to grow crops on Greenland? A LOT WARMER THAN IT IS TODAY! They didn't even have combustion back then... and to think we are causing global warming...

Did you know that the Sun has cycles? It releases more heat at times through sunspots and solar flares. Other times it is relatively quiet in those regards. Now who is to say that the sun is not responsible for this rise of temperatures? Lets see... about 30 years ago the scare was Global Cooling... The sun has a cycle of roughly 22 years. You do the math.

Arrogance and political invasiveness really get to me, and this hoax is the Grandfather of them all.

so every scientist who has ever said global warming is a fact is wrong, thats alot of scientists you know, i agree that in the past scientists were wrong about a global cooling, but science evolves just as people do, and i think that the scientists of today are alot better than thoose around 20-30 years ago.


So you think that the same people and community that was wrong then CANNOT POSSIBLY be wrong today? PHUEY!! Open your eyes and question what you think you know. You will learn many things this way.


I just dont think there wrong this time, the evidence is overwhleming, the chances of them being wrong are very small, also given that fuel shortage is a FACT, do you not agree with me that alternate fuel sources are needed.


No actually. I don't agree with you that alternative fuel sources are needed. They will be nice for taking the pressure off of oil, eventually. Right now there is still PLENTY of oil in the ground. It would take the world well over 30 years to use it up even at the current expanding rate oil is being used. Did you know that there was recently a BIG find of oil in the Dakotas? And did you know that the US has abundant supplies of Shale, from which oil can be extracted? Did you also know that the same environmental extremists that cry out loudest about Global Warming also cry out loudest again drilling for oil in America? What about ANWR? What about drilling off the coasts of Florida and California? Australia drills off its coasts extensively, but their beaches are still great. There is plenty of oil out there to be found and recovered, but simply put the environmentalists won't stand for it.

EDIT: I do think that alternative fuels will replace oil, eventually. But it will be YEARS down the line. They simply are not ready for large scale usage. They are too expensive and too hard to produce eficiently. Research them all you want, but Oil is and will be the fuel that runs the world for the forseeable future.


so the global oil price is increasing becauese theres plenty of it?



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So politicians, those who pander to the lowest common denominator, the ones who bankrupted our country, the ones who lie through their teeth about far too many things, they are now acceptable 'experts' on Global warming? Politicians will do anything if they think it will help them get re-elected, even buy into a hoax.



I love how people are always saying "save the environment". It should be save ourselves because we are the ones being punished by our own pollutants. When all is said and done with humanity, the Earth will be fine. Do you think it gives a fuck? The only thing it has to worry about is the sun blowing up in 5 billion years. Then again I don't think it's self aware. I'll stop rambling now.



PS360ForTheWin said:
luinil said:

No actually. I don't agree with you that alternative fuel sources are needed. They will be nice for taking the pressure off of oil, eventually. Right now there is still PLENTY of oil in the ground. It would take the world well over 30 years to use it up even at the current expanding rate oil is being used. Did you know that there was recently a BIG find of oil in the Dakotas? And did you know that the US has abundant supplies of Shale, from which oil can be extracted? Did you also know that the same environmental extremists that cry out loudest about Global Warming also cry out loudest again drilling for oil in America? What about ANWR? What about drilling off the coasts of Florida and California? Australia drills off its coasts extensively, but their beaches are still great. There is plenty of oil out there to be found and recovered, but simply put the environmentalists won't stand for it.

EDIT: I do think that alternative fuels will replace oil, eventually. But it will be YEARS down the line. They simply are not ready for large scale usage. They are too expensive and too hard to produce eficiently. Research them all you want, but Oil is and will be the fuel that runs the world for the forseeable future.


so the global oil price is increasing becauese theres plenty of it?


 No, the prices are increasing because there is not enough of it ON THE MARKET! If you were to think of this as what it is, supply and demand, then if the supply stays constant and the demand goes up, the price will go up. This is EXACTLY what is going on now. China and India are expanding at a rapid rate and are using oil like never before (for them). So CONSTANT supply of oil (on the market) + INCREASING demand of oil = INCREASING price of oil, how to fix? Two ways: 1) lower demand levels, or 2) Increase supply. Either way, prices will go down. Since option 1 is not going to happen, lets open up drilling for domestic oil and produce, produce, produce!



PS360ForTheWin said:
Sqrl said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
luinil said:

So you think that the same people and community that was wrong then CANNOT POSSIBLY be wrong today? PHUEY!! Open your eyes and question what you think you know. You will learn many things this way.


I just dont think there wrong this time, the evidence is overwhleming, the chances of them being wrong are very small, also given that fuel shortage is a FACT, do you not agree with me that alternate fuel sources are needed.


First, you asked if I thought every scientist who agrees with GW is wrong. My response would be to ask if you think the 32,000 scientists HappySquirrel's article talked about are wrong? Keep in mind over 9,000 of them have PhDs.

As for overwhelming evidence, please share with us some of the evidence since I quite frankly haven't seen anything convincing.

Please note, overwhelming refers to the vast number of reports on the internet and television that show it abd the fact that most politicians and scientists know aknowledge the problem. if u want to know more, go to wikipedia or google and search for global warming, i dont have time to give you all the millions of links.

Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming


See thats the point, I've done the research, I've read everything ranging from people who completely support it to people who completely disagree with it and the conclusion I keep finding is that there isn't enough evidence for AGW but in fact that the evidence shows just the opposite. I've read the wikipedia page on GW a number of times, as well as pretty much all of the off-shoot links to related topics as well as places like RealClimate.com, and too many more to recount. So if you know of evidence then please site it. I've done the reading and I'm ready to debate the topic regardless of who it is on the other end, because not only am I confident in my position, I'm simply not afraid to be proven wrong...the truth is the goal afterall.

As for the TV and politicians...that comment is laughable, those people are not scientistis, they are actually the PERFECT example of the types of people you would expect to hold science as a hostage for their own causes...they do it with everything else so why not science?

 



To Each Man, Responsibility
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luinil said:
So politicians, those who pander to the lowest common denominator, the ones who bankrupted our country, the ones who lie through their teeth about far too many things, they are now acceptable 'experts' on Global warming? Politicians will do anything if they think it will help them get re-elected, even buy into a hoax.

 at no point did i call politicans experts, and not all of them are stupid you know.



Sqrl said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
Sqrl said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
luinil said:

So you think that the same people and community that was wrong then CANNOT POSSIBLY be wrong today? PHUEY!! Open your eyes and question what you think you know. You will learn many things this way.


I just dont think there wrong this time, the evidence is overwhleming, the chances of them being wrong are very small, also given that fuel shortage is a FACT, do you not agree with me that alternate fuel sources are needed.


First, you asked if I thought every scientist who agrees with GW is wrong. My response would be to ask if you think the 32,000 scientists HappySquirrel's article talked about are wrong? Keep in mind over 9,000 of them have PhDs.

As for overwhelming evidence, please share with us some of the evidence since I quite frankly haven't seen anything convincing.

Please note, overwhelming refers to the vast number of reports on the internet and television that show it abd the fact that most politicians and scientists know aknowledge the problem. if u want to know more, go to wikipedia or google and search for global warming, i dont have time to give you all the millions of links.

Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming


See thats the point, I've done the research, I've read everything ranging from people who completely support it to people who completely disagree with it and the conclusion I keep finding is that there isn't enough evidence for AGW but in fact that the evidence shows just the opposite. I've read the wikipedia page on GW a number of times, as well as pretty much all of the off-shoot links to related topics as well as places like RealClimate.com, and too many more to recount. So if you know of evidence then please site it. I've done the reading and I'm ready to debate the topic regardless of who it is on the other end, because not only am I confident in my position, I'm simply not afraid to be proven wrong...the truth is the goal afterall.

As for the TV and politicians...that comment is laughable, those people are not scientistis, they are actually the PERFECT example of the types of people you would expect to hold science as a hostage for their own causes...they do it with everything else so why not science?

 


thank you for taking my comments out of context, by tv/internet reports i mean that feature scientists and there reports, i would have thought that was obvious. So wikipedia and all its links are insufficient and you call me stubborn.



Since PS360ForTheWin didn't go to the site I linked to ( http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/05/17/32-000-deniers.aspx ) here is the article:

Question: How many scientists does it take to establish that a consensus does not exist on global warming? The quest to establish that the science is not settled on climate change began before most people had even heard of global warming.

The year was 1992 and the United Nations was about to hold its Earth Summit in Rio. It was billed as — and was — the greatest environmental and political assemblage in human history. Delegations came from 178 nations — virtually every nation in the world — including 118 heads of state or government and 7,000 diplomatic bureaucrats. The world’s environmental groups came too — they sent some 30,000 representatives from every corner of the world to Rio. To report all this, 7,000 journalists converged on Rio to cover the event, and relay to the publics of the world that global warming and other environmental insults were threatening the planet with catastrophe.

In February of that year, in an attempt to head off the whirlwind that the conference would unleash, 47 scientists signed a “Statement by Atmospheric Scientists on Greenhouse Warming,” decrying “the unsupported assumption that catastrophic global warming follows from the burning of fossil fuels and requires immediate action.”

To a scientist in search of truth, 47 is an impressive number, especially if those 47 dissenters include many of the world’s most eminent scientists. To the environmentalists, politicians, press at Rio, their own overwhelming numbers made the 47 seem irrelevant.

Knowing this, a larger petition effort was undertaken, known as the Heidelberg Appeal, and released to the public at the Earth Summit. By the summit’s end, 425 scientists and other intellectual leaders had signed the appeal.

These scientists — mere hundreds — also mattered for nought in the face of the tens of thousands assembled at Rio. The Heidelberg Appeal was blown away and never obtained prominence, even though the organizers persisted over the years to ultimately obtain some 4,000 signatories, including 72 Nobel Prize winners.

The earnest effort to demonstrate the absence of a consensus continued with the Leipzig Declaration on Global Climate Change — an attempt to counter the Kyoto Protocol of 1997. Its 150-odd signatories also counted for nought. As did the Cornwall Declaration on Environmental Stewardship in 2000, signed by more than 1,500 clergy, theologians, religious leaders, scientists, academics and policy experts concerned about the harm that Kyoto could inflict on the world’s poor.

Then came the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine’s Petition Project of 2001, which far surpassed all previous efforts and by all rights should have settled the issue of whether the science was settled on climate change. To establish that the effort was bona fide, and not spawned by kooks on the fringes of science, as global warming advocates often label the skeptics, the effort was spearheaded by Dr. Frederick Seitz, past president of the National Academy of Sciences and of Rockefeller University, and as reputable as they come.

The Oregon petition garnered an astounding 17,800 signatures, a number all the more astounding because of the unequivocal stance that these scientists took: Not only did they dispute that there was convincing evidence of harm from carbon dioxide emissions, they asserted that Kyoto itself would harm the global environment because “increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.”

The petition drew media attention, but little of it was for revealing to the world that an extraordinary number of scientists hold views on global warming diametrically opposite to those they are expected to hold. Instead, the press focussed on presumed flaws that critics found in the petition. Some claimed the petition was riddled with duplicate names. They were no duplicates, just different scientists with the same name. Some claimed the petition had phonies. There was only one phony: Spice Girl Geri Halliwell, planted by a Greenpeace organization to discredit the petition and soon removed. Other names that seemed to be phony — such as Michael Fox, the actor, and Perry Mason, the fictional lawyer in a TV series — were actually bona fide scientists, properly credentialled.

Like the Heidelberg Appeal, the Oregon petition was blown away. But now it is blowing back. Original signatories to the petition and others, outraged at Kyoto’s corruption of science, wrote to the Oregon Institute and its director, Arthur Robinson, asking that the petition be brought back.

“E-mails started coming in every day,” he explained. “And they kept coming. “ The writers were outraged at the way Al Gore and company were abusing the science to their own ends. “We decided to do the survey again.”

Using a subset of the mailing list of American Men and Women of Science, a who’s who of Science, Robinson mailed out his solicitations through the postal service, requesting signed petitions of those who agreed that Kyoto was a danger to humanity. The response rate was extraordinary, “much, much higher than anyone expected, much higher than you’d ordinarily expect,” he explained. He’s processed more than 31,000 at this point, more than 9,000 of them with PhDs, and has another 1,000 or so to go — most of them are already posted on a Web site at petitionproject.org.

Why go to this immense effort all over again, when the press might well ignore the tens of thousands of scientists who are standing up against global warming alarmism?

“I hope the general public will become aware that there is no consensus on global warming,” he says, “and I hope that scientists who have been reluctant to speak up will now do so, knowing that they aren’t alone.”

At one level, Robinson, a PhD scientist himself, recoils at his petition. Science shouldn’t be done by poll, he explains. “The numbers shouldn’t matter. But if they want warm bodies, we have them.”

Some 32,000 scientists is more than the number of environmentalists that descended on Rio in 1992. Is this enough to establish that the science is not settled on global warming? The press conference releasing these names occurs on Monday at the National Press Club in Washington.



2 can play at the posting game, also 32,000 is not alot when you think of how many scientists there are in the world, and also how is that evidence against it?

links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide-en.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Global_Warming_Predictions.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Glacier_Mass_Balance.png



PS360ForTheWin said:
Sqrl said:

See thats the point, I've done the research, I've read everything ranging from people who completely support it to people who completely disagree with it and the conclusion I keep finding is that there isn't enough evidence for AGW but in fact that the evidence shows just the opposite. I've read the wikipedia page on GW a number of times, as well as pretty much all of the off-shoot links to related topics as well as places like RealClimate.com, and too many more to recount. So if you know of evidence then please site it. I've done the reading and I'm ready to debate the topic regardless of who it is on the other end, because not only am I confident in my position, I'm simply not afraid to be proven wrong...the truth is the goal afterall.

As for the TV and politicians...that comment is laughable, those people are not scientistis, they are actually the PERFECT example of the types of people you would expect to hold science as a hostage for their own causes...they do it with everything else so why not science?

 


thank you for taking my comments out of context, by tv/internet reports i mean that feature scientists and there reports, i would have thought that was obvious. So wikipedia and all its links are insufficient and you call me stubborn.


No your comment was perfectly in context. If you intended to point out those scientists then you could have done so directly. For instance:

Scientists like Climatologist Kerry Emanuel of MIT who previously had previously said GW would be the cause of horrible natural disasters based on his climate models and recently rescinded that position?

But you chose to site groups that are by their nature bound to political agendas and ideas and whom are rife with reasons to only site those who agree with them. You brought that unnecessary layer into the discussion, what was the point if not to site them?

Wikipedia, is a great source of information and you can make it sound like I disagree with everything there if you like but the simple fact is that much of what is there is correct and only a handful of it are things I've found reason to disagree with.

Are you planning to site specifics as I have done? Truly this debate is one-sided at the moment, you've asked me and others in several posts to take the words of the unspecified scientists and unspecified politicians, etc.. and I've responded with specifics. If you have nothing to site then state so and move on.

 



To Each Man, Responsibility