CrazzyMan said: Sorry, that i must dissapoint you all... =) But do you people consider, how much PROFIT Sony made and WILL make on blu-ray winning as HD format? How much Sony was able to increase numbers of sold TVs, thnx to blu-ray winning? PS3 had 2 targets to achieve, win HD war + bring HD to masses and make a profit in Gaming sector. PS3 already achieved first target and that`s why PS3 is a SUCCESS. =)

Well how much money did Phillips make off of Laserdisc?

I'm not claiming that Blu-Ray is going to be as niche of a product as Laserdisc, but there is really no evidence that Blu-Ray will be as successful as early as you expect. Between the XBox HD-DVD drive and Blu-Ray being built into the PS3, about the only group that has shown any interest in HD movies are gamers; and it is not even the majority of gamers who have shown interest being that the HD consoles are being outperformed by the Wii, and not everyone who owns a PS3 or XBox 360 uses their system as a HD movie player.

In my opinion the progression of Blu-Ray outside of the videogame market will come from people who have far more disposable income than most people do, and from people replacing their DVD players when Blu-Ray is inexpensive enough to be only a minor additional cost over a standard DVD player.

What this means is it may 5 to 10 years before the Blu-Ray consortium has made enough money off of Blu-Ray disc and player licencing fees to have broken even on all of the R&D, Marketing costs, and pay-outs to large movie studios in order to say that the consortium has made a profit; Sony is only one of many companies who are involved in this consortium so they may not even make that much money off of their licencing fees.

The reason why Sony is so "Hog-Wild" about new media formats has less to do with the money they make from the format as it does with reselling content you already own. Sony expects big sales from the release of "The Goonies" and I personally wonder how many people will get rid of their perfectly good movie and replace it with a Blu-Ray movie for $30 when their upscaling dvd player/Blu-Ray player makes it look pretty nice on their TV anyways; it seems to me that people may very well wait until these movies are on the bargain rack before they even consider them.

shams said: libellule said: ... Colin Sebastian - Lazard Okay. But it sounds like on balance you are favoring the profitability over unit sales and market share, is that a fair characterization? Nobuyuki Oneda - Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer Yes. Colin Sebastian - Lazard Allright, thank you. Thanks, that is the article I was looking for - and what spurred this thread in the first place.   @Reasonable: Did you miss the "(for now anyway)" in the thread title? It is there for a reason. In theory, being critical of anything can be construed as "using potentially inflamatory languague". Queue the first Mr Hanky South Park episode...  ... Anyway, I'm VERY glad this thread didn't turn into a flame fest. Its been very mature and intelligent discussion all round :)

Sorry, I can't help myself - too much English studies.  The point is you don't 'throw in the towel (for now)'.  It means to give up completely - not for a while.  Pedantic I know but I blame my tutors!

I agree it hasn't been a flame fest - much to my surprise I might add!

 

 

HappySqurriel said: CrazzyMan said: Sorry, that i must dissapoint you all... =) But do you people consider, how much PROFIT Sony made and WILL make on blu-ray winning as HD format? How much Sony was able to increase numbers of sold TVs, thnx to blu-ray winning? PS3 had 2 targets to achieve, win HD war + bring HD to masses and make a profit in Gaming sector. PS3 already achieved first target and that`s why PS3 is a SUCCESS. =) Well how much money did Phillips make off of Laserdisc? I'm not claiming that Blu-Ray is going to be as niche of a product as Laserdisc, but there is really no evidence that Blu-Ray will be as successful as early as you expect. Between the XBox HD-DVD drive and Blu-Ray being built into the PS3, about the only group that has shown any interest in HD movies are gamers; and it is not even the majority of gamers who have shown interest being that the HD consoles are being outperformed by the Wii, and not everyone who owns a PS3 or XBox 360 uses their system as a HD movie player. In my opinion the progression of Blu-Ray outside of the videogame market will come from people who have far more disposable income than most people do, and from people replacing their DVD players when Blu-Ray is inexpensive enough to be only a minor additional cost over a standard DVD player. What this means is it may 5 to 10 years before the Blu-Ray consortium has made enough money off of Blu-Ray disc and player licencing fees to have broken even on all of the R&D, Marketing costs, and pay-outs to large movie studios in order to say that the consortium has made a profit; Sony is only one of many companies who are involved in this consortium so they may not even make that much money off of their licencing fees. The reason why Sony is so "Hog-Wild" about new media formats has less to do with the money they make from the format as it does with reselling content you already own. Sony expects big sales from the release of "The Goonies" and I personally wonder how many people will get rid of their perfectly good movie and replace it with a Blu-Ray movie for $30 when their upscaling dvd player/Blu-Ray player makes it look pretty nice on their TV anyways; it seems to me that people may very well wait until these movies are on the bargain rack before they even consider them.

Perhaps they won't replace it with more of the same. Great argument by the way.

I can kinda see a future where all the media in the house is stored in <Insert console or device here> and can be transmitted wirelessly to the car or to any tv in the house. I would say that kind of convenience may sway people to rebuy their content, but even then it's pushing it. I would say that the media companies have gotten a litttle greedy with their expectation of profits.

CrazzyMan said: @NJ5, you are free to answer to your question, lol. =))

You were the one who said Blu-Ray will make it all worth it. That means the burden of proof is on you, not me.

 

Throwing in the towel ... no way , they are just trying to get back their lost money ;)

So if we can all just agree to move on from debating the proper usage of "throwing in the towel" and focus instead on what's at stake here...

This very much hands the ball back to MS. The PS3, with no price cut, is not going to be able to sell much better than it is right now. It will get some small sales boost from MGS4 (though MGS1-3 were never GTA or Halo level system sellers) and maybe one or two other games this year, but for the most part there will be no reason for sustained, elevated sales on the PS3's part.

So MS has three options:

1. Maintain current price levels, likely see its own sales remain flat, and continue to watch the Wii pull away and the PS3 pull closer, all in the hopes of maximizing their profit, especially with a new, cheaper chipset on the horizon.

2. Slash prices agrressively, banking on the new, cheaper chipset and increased sales to compensate for the revenue loss.

3. Split the baby down the middle, and offer another piddling price cut.

Since it's not my money, and I have been waiting two years for a real 360 price cut, I am clearly in favor of option 2. Beyond my own selfish concerns, this is MS, who has most of Earth's money, and can afford to lose some green. What it needs more to remain viable in this industry is to regain the momentum it lost with the RRoD, and create a big enough sales differential between the 360 and PS3 that it can go into the next generation as the 2nd place console (though, like Sega Genesis, it could lose that position once it moves on).

PDF said: If were gonna use boxing terms then are you familiar with the rope a dope? Sony is using the rope a dope technique. They are gonna stand their in a defensive position letting their competition get tired. MS lost huge amounts of money on the xbox during its life time and lost money at the beggining of the 360 lifetime but they never dropped out. I think Sony can easily withstand a few years loss. The ball is in MS court. Sony wont drop the price before MS. If MS has a price cut sony will most likely watch the result of the price cut for the next following month. Now if the effect of the 360 price cut is not to significant and ps3 sales stay very strong then their may not be a ps3 price drop. However if the 360 price cut is huge for MS expect sony to drop as well.

 Microsoft still loses money on XBox360. They have never made a profit on Xbox360. I don't know how/why this rumor started,  but Microsoft STILL ( as of last month!) loses money on Xbox360 sales. The more they sell, the more they lose.  Their position is similar to Sony's but with even larger life time losses to date.

jkimball

plz plz plz have u a link to microsoft Q4 revenue ?

because I thougth they were making money (+180 million$ vs -300 million $ for Sony)

libellule said: jkimball plz plz plz have u a link to microsoft Q4 revenue ? because I thougth they were making money (+180 million$ vs -300 million $ for Sony)

MS is making coin on its entertainment division, of which the XBox is only a part. I don't know that anyone knows how much was gained or lost specifically by the XBox.

As for losing money on the Box, it was nowhere near the $200 per Sony was losing, and should now be close to even or profitable for each system sold (given the lack of large cuts in its biggest market), if not for the $1b lost to the RRoD.

And remember - console cost is only one factor. The long standing model of the game industry has been to take a small hit on the console, and make money back on the games. The 360 has been selling a lot more software overall than the PS3, which means the 360 is mostly making it's money back through software where the PS3 may not be.

And as I recall (and I may be wrong), the PS3 manufacturing costs had dropped to be slightly above (now I imagine slightly below) market value, but that was just for manufacturing. Marketing, R&D and shipping had not been factored in, and those add to the cost.

I would expect a large price cut before Killzone 2, and then another large one in Japan before FF XIII. I think they are saving up until their really big guns come out in 2009 (XIII and GT 5)