Maybe I'm just jaded but after SS2 and hearing that Irrational was going to take on Objectivism, BioShock was a letdown. I know where they were going with the whole "choice" thing, I just didn't think it worked very well. I think putting some actual choice in there and taking the player down the Objectivist or non-Objectivist path after that would have make for a much more engaging experience. Smarter, too. There are a lot of interesting aspects of Objectivism but Irrational seemed to gloss over much of it.

Oh, and I agree that Rapture is its own character. It's my favorite game environment ever. Even better than the Fallout world IMO.

I think Earthbound, Paper Mario TYD and the original Monkey Island have pretty clever conversations and choices.

well, I think Mario and Luigi had an excellent story,
Lots of hilarious plots and twists that was just completely random.

shio said: WoW, the "main story" of Fallout is the side-stuff. The main story of Fallout is the path the player chooses to take, and the only pre-defined part of the story is where it begins and where it ends. That's the beauty of Fallout. I'm sorry but that's a cop out.  That's like saying Oblivion has a great story because it has a bajillion little side-quests you can do.  The base minimum of "stuff" needed to get through the game from start to finish is what I define the "main story" as and by that definition, it is very shallow. It's too bad you only played the first 30min of PS:T (the beginning is the worst part of the game), you won't ever know how deep Morte is. Morte is a confident, a comedian, someone to stay by your side. He witnessed countless incarnations of the Nameless One, and he's seen him become someone distinct everytime from "mighty wizard to petty thief, a paragon of virtue to a heartless villain", to even a Raging Madman. Because of that he shelters himself and much of what he knows until he believes(if he believes) it is safe with the Namelesss One's incarnation the player is controlling.  And am I supposed to believe that he's a more engaging or fun character than the likes of Minsc?  Deekin?  HK-47?

Also, just to show you the gap between Minsc and Morte... Minsc has an ENTIRE Wikipedia page dedicated to him and his pet miniature giant space hamster Boo.

Rather than repost the entire contents, I'll just give you the link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsc

Oooh good one...

Phoenix Wright series
Civilisation series (on hard)
Resident evil 1
Football manager series

@WoW
Oblivion is so much different from Fallout 2:
First, because Oblivion has a true linear story(a very boring one).
Second, because Fallout 2 is not linear and as a result the story then is focused in a different structure, which consists of the "side-stuff". It even gives you endings/consequences of the actions you have done throughout the game.

"The base minimum of "stuff" needed to get through the game from start to finish is what I define the "main story" as and by that definition, it is very shallow."

Well thank you, since you can finish Fallout 2 in just under 20 minutes... And Fallout 1 in under 10 minutes...



It's fine if you don't believe me just because I said it, as long as you don't judge Morte or Planescape: Torment from only 30min of play (and as I said, the beginning of the game is easily the most boring one).

shio said: @WoW Oblivion is so much different from Fallout 2: First, because Oblivion has a true linear story(a very boring one). Second, because Fallout 2 is not linear and as a result the story then is focused in a different structure, which consists of the "side-stuff". It even gives you endings/consequences of the actions you have done throughout the game. "The base minimum of "stuff" needed to get through the game from start to finish is what I define the "main story" as and by that definition, it is very shallow." Well thank you, since you can finish Fallout 2 in just under 20 minutes... And Fallout 1 in under 10 minutes... It's fine if you don't believe me just because I said it, as long as you don't judge Morte or Planescape: Torment from only 30min of play (and as I said, the beginning of the game is easily the most boring one).

I think the point I was trying to make by mentioning Oblivion went over your head so we'll move on.

Yes, I know you can beat Fallout 2 that quickly.  I've done it... well maybe not in 20 minutes.  I usually have to reload a couple times (annnoying unwinable fights...).

I can't judge them by anything else.  I realize it's an incomplete judgment and that's why I mentioned the time played in the first place.  ^_^

Truly 'smart' games?

Well a lot of 4X games would probably fall under that category.

As far as stories go... well games never really have gotten a hold of originality and the ones that try usually fail badly. Fallout 2's story was far from engaging to me and thats probably the best one I can think of. Thus I prefer the cliche little stories such as FFIV that are entirely predictable but nonetheless entertaining.

 

Edit: I think I'm missing the point here actually. Yeah Fallout 2 and stuff have 'intelligent' stories, they require character decisions and choices that strongly effect the game. My problem with them is that I don't really feel they emotionally affect the player, which should be the aim of a story in my opinion. Therefore Fallout 2 is perhaps the smartest game, but its not the best story because of it.

StarCraft and Metroid Prime 2 always challenged me.

Eternal Darkness
Half-Life 1 and 2
Portal
Chrono Trigger