Ajax said: Can americans or europeans make great anime's and manga's? Is just a question like that. Of course they can draw it, but story-wise, action-wise, scene-wise, humor-wise and music-wise they are formed differently than the japanese artists..

Actually "Avatar" has already blurred that line for me.
So yes, they definately can.

To the OP, I say NO! It's nearly impossible to do.
And that's because of poor picture culture on western people (or different, as "poor" will not please some people, even though I'm a western guy). It's even more apparent in this thread, where people say it's possible by citing obvious and apparent elements of a JRPG or WRPG. The problem is that the culture of the game's creators comes through as obvious through all the small details that people don't even realize they put in their game.
I mean, anyone who lived long enough and close enough to asians (or more specifically japanese) and their culture, and studied even a little of the subtle differences, know that it's just impossible. Someone that lived 30 years in japanese culture could perhaps do such a feat, but for an entire team it's nearly impossible. The number of little automatic things we do that are different from the japanese or asian ways is staggering. This goes as far as how you move your body (immediately obvious if you do martial arts with japanese people).

NO! Don't kid yourself. There is no more fidelity to real RPG from C(W)RPG or from JRPG. Both have taken different directions (due mostly to difference in culture), and both are far from the real thing.


That's with quotes like that that you start to notice it's impossible for a western guy to make a japanese style game and do it right. An eastern guy will tell you it's not true. You think customizable is being able to customize your character appearance (and other things), and what's worst, you think it's important. This reminds me of complaints of the Mii not being customizable enough. That this "customization" is seen as an advantage is clearly a western PoV. Because it allows for munchkin and all that goes with it. Predefined characters in some JRPG are there to prevents this, as this "customization" derails the experience during the game. This is seen as a good thing in JRPG, but as a bad thing in WRPG. These are the kind of differences to overcome to be able to make your game for another culture.


JRPG focusing its appeal on its storyline is false, but that's a typical western view. Them being inspired by anime and manga is also completely false and again a typical western view. Again, these are huge differences between both cultures, that are very hard to overcome.
JRPG are focusing on experience, what you live throughout the game. That's why the JRPG games having a beautiful ending or not is irrelevant, but to most western people it's very important. And the medium used to convey the experience happens to be the same as anime and manga for the simple fact that they allow to convey more than "realistic" graphics.


Again, a pretty good example of culture differences. A "linear experience" is actually nonsense. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. If I understand what this is supposed to mean, movies and books are "linear experiences" (this is not true at all, but whatever). And what's worst, is that this then just proves that real RPG are "linear experiences" and "interactive adventure" too. So are JRPG more the true RPG type, contradictory to what was said before?

And these "many" are all western guys. Also, many don't consider WRPG true RPG.
You know what, WRPG to me, is the equivalent of how Gary Gygax's friend Bill was playing D&D : munchkin, roll-playing.


They won't ever succeed then. The success of FFVII is due to the cunning Square Soft had at the time. The cunning they had starting with the first FF, that people don't even realize. This is no coincidence that FF was the success it was, when launched on a disruptive system which was the NES. Square Soft also successfully followed the disruption and cycle in the "cinematic age" with their FFVII. They had the cunning at the time, to see the disruption, and to follow the cycles correctly. This is true all through FFXII, even if FFXII was badly executed. FFVII launched at the start of the PSX disruption and at the start of the cinematic cycle, so it's no coincidence it was such a success.
It's no luck either, as I remember clearly someone from Square (Sakaguchi?) saying at the time that FFVII would be like nothing before, that Square was then going in a new direction, and that they would not reveal everything, but just a few of these revolutions, like the introduction of mini-games in their JRPG.

Words Of Wisdom said: I have the feeling that maybe 2 people in this whole thread know what the difference between a "non-linear" RPG and a "linear" RPG is. Who can name a "non-linear" RPG? Preferable a WRPG. Also please explain why you think it's "non-linear." This could be fun.

 The entire Elder Scrolls series? The endings are only 'somewhat' different, but it's so non-linear that the main quest becomes pretty much a face in the crowd.  You have an entire world to do what you want in.  Something like Final Fantasy is the exact opposite--sure, sometimes there's the odd sidequest to get an item that will help you in the main quest, but you're essentially pushed along one path.

thekitchensink said: The entire Elder Scrolls series? The endings are only 'somewhat' different, but it's so non-linear that the main quest becomes pretty much a face in the crowd. You have an entire world to do what you want in. Something like Final Fantasy is the exact opposite--sure, sometimes there's the odd sidequest to get an item that will help you in the main quest, but you're essentially pushed along one path.

You can do that in most JRPG too. Even on some SRPG.

If it was non-linear, you could "have an ending" for every single one of the "do what you want" things that you say make a difference. As this is not the case, this happens to be just nonsense.

The fact is that your western mind sees this as a non-linear thing, while in JRPG, this is the equivalent of succeeding to breed the ultimate Chocobo in FFVII, or win all races, or beat Omega in some FF, ...

"non-linear" in such videogame RPG is just plain nonsense, it's wishful thinking at best.

ookaze said: thekitchensink said: The entire Elder Scrolls series? The endings are only 'somewhat' different, but it's so non-linear that the main quest becomes pretty much a face in the crowd. You have an entire world to do what you want in. Something like Final Fantasy is the exact opposite--sure, sometimes there's the odd sidequest to get an item that will help you in the main quest, but you're essentially pushed along one path. You can do that in most JRPG too. Even on some SRPG. If it was non-linear, you could "have an ending" for every single one of the "do what you want" things that you say make a difference. As this is not the case, this happens to be just nonsense. The fact is that your western mind sees this as a non-linear thing, while in JRPG, this is the equivalent of succeeding to breed the ultimate Chocobo in FFVII, or win all races, or beat Omega in some FF, ... "non-linear" in such videogame RPG is just plain nonsense, it's wishful thinking at best.

 I was just working on writing something similar. Yes, there are many many side things you can do in the series, but from what I remember, the main quest was still basically from point a to b to c. In that case, it can be said there is more variety (sometimes) or things to do in the game besides the main story, but for really non-linear, I'm having trouble thinking of anything on either/any front for RPGs.

This does remind me of a point of conversation I have for Oblivion, but that's for another thread if I get around to it in the next few days.

As for if someone can make something that could be/feel like another region's RPG, I'm going to say I think it is possible.

@DeltaXIII
I agree.

Western developers can make an RPG akin to a JRPG if they wanted to

ookaze said: To the OP, I say NO! It's nearly impossible to do. And that's because of poor picture culture on western people (or different, as "poor" will not please some people, even though I'm a western guy). It's even more apparent in this thread, where people say it's possible by citing obvious and apparent elements of a JRPG or WRPG. The problem is that the culture of the game's creators comes through as obvious through all the small details that people don't even realize they put in their game. I mean, anyone who lived long enough and close enough to asians (or more specifically japanese) and their culture, and studied even a little of the subtle differences, know that it's just impossible. Someone that lived 30 years in japanese culture could perhaps do such a feat, but for an entire team it's nearly impossible. The number of little automatic things we do that are different from the japanese or asian ways is staggering. This goes as far as how you move your body (immediately obvious if you do martial arts with japanese people). celine said: In my opinion a CRPG is a videogame that try to copy to a certain fedelity degree real role playing games and has a setting inspire bywestern fantasy book ( or sci-fi or steam punk in less degree ). NO! Don't kid yourself. There is no more fidelity to real RPG from C(W)RPG or from JRPG. Both have taken different directions (due mostly to difference in culture), and both are far from the real thing. I agree it is why I said "try" Also even Dragon Quest was was inspired by P&P RPG. Oh I agree also on the cultural difference.  celine said: A CRPG has generally more freedom than JRPG and it is more customizable. That's with quotes like that that you start to notice it's impossible for a western guy to make a japanese style game and do it right. An eastern guy will tell you it's not true. You think customizable is being able to customize your character appearance (and other things), and what's worst, you think it's important. This reminds me of complaints of the Mii not being customizable enough. That this "customization" is seen as an advantage is clearly a western PoV. Because it allows for munchkin and all that goes with it. Predefined characters in some JRPG are there to prevents this, as this "customization" derails the experience during the game. This is seen as a good thing in JRPG, but as a bad thing in WRPG. These are the kind of differences to overcome to be able to make your game for another culture. Calm down. "You think customizable is being able to customize your character appearance (and other things), and what's worst, you think it's important". You don't know me   However  I , again, agree with your point. I don't think that major freedom is better than a more focus storyline or viceversa. It is simply different celine said: JRPG focus its appeal on its storyline and is mostly inspired by anime and manga ( japanese ). Also it is generally more simple ( CRPG born on home-computer with Ultima and Wizardry while JRPG born on Famicom with Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy so they had to adapt to simple input of Famicom pad and Famicom userbase's reference were children ). JRPG focusing its appeal on its storyline is false, but that's a typical western view. Them being inspired by anime and manga is also completely false and again a typical western view. Again, these are huge differences between both cultures, that are very hard to overcome. JRPG are focusing on experience, what you live throughout the game. That's why the JRPG games having a beautiful ending or not is irrelevant, but to most western people it's very important. And the medium used to convey the experience happens to be the same as anime and manga for the simple fact that they allow to convey more than "realistic" graphics. Manga and anime are part of japanese ( pop ? ) culture. The first Dragon Quest has Toriyama as character designer ( and more important monster   designer ). Series like TalesOf in my humble opinion are clearly inspired by anime. Agree with the cultural difference.  celine said: JRPG is a more linear experience and it is based most on concept of interactive adventure. Again, a pretty good example of culture differences. A "linear experience" is actually nonsense. It doesn't mean ANYTHING. If I understand what this is supposed to mean, movies and books are "linear experiences" (this is not true at all, but whatever). And what's worst, is that this then just proves that real RPG are "linear experiences" and "interactive adventure" too. So are JRPG more the true RPG type, contradictory to what was said before? Nah I think that P&P RPG are different from CRPG and different from JRPG. I think that in many JRPG you usually can't choose what your avatar say or made ethical choice. Again I never stated that one form is better than the other ( they both have pro and cons ).  celine said: In fact many don't consider JRPG true RPG. And these "many" are all western guys. Also, many don't consider WRPG true RPG. You know what, WRPG to me, is the equivalent of how Gary Gygax's friend Bill was playing D&D : munchkin, roll-playing. I agree. celine said: Another fact to consider is the success of Final Fantasy 7 even in western regions ( 9 million copy !). Some western developers tried to copy it to gain similar success ( ie: Silver ). They won't ever succeed then. The success of FFVII is due to the cunning Square Soft had at the time. The cunning they had starting with the first FF, that people don't even realize. This is no coincidence that FF was the success it was, when launched on a disruptive system which was the NES. Square Soft also successfully followed the disruption and cycle in the "cinematic age" with their FFVII. They had the cunning at the time, to see the disruption, and to follow the cycles correctly. This is true all through FFXII, even if FFXII was badly executed. FFVII launched at the start of the PSX disruption and at the start of the cinematic cycle, so it's no coincidence it was such a success. It's no luck either, as I remember clearly someone from Square (Sakaguchi?) saying at the time that FFVII would be like nothing before, that Square was then going in a new direction, and that they would not reveal everything, but just a few of these revolutions, like the introduction of mini-games in their JRPG. I never said that they will succede ( it's quite impossible ). I agree that FF1 and FF7 were disruptive games ( especially seven for the cinemtic trend ). Have you ever play to Anachronox ? Do you like it ?

 

It depends on your definitions. Eitherway the terms WRPG and JRPG are completely retarded and should be replaced with RPG and ARPG.

Kasz216 said: It depends on your definitions. Eitherway the terms WRPG and JRPG are completely retarded and should be replaced with RPG and ARPG.

 I agree to some extent since WRPG and JRPGs do have their differences but both have the same roots

@celine:

I was in no way mad at you, nor scolding anyone, sorry if that came out that way.
I was just generally speaking, I was even included in some bad behaviour, because I'm western, and despite being able to feel at home in most eastern environment, I still have typically western habits deeply buried inside myself. And I think I can't ever get rid of them. Perhaps I could, but there's no point.

As for the "anime style", I have to explain a bit better. Saying these games are anime style is the same as saying games are "real-life" style. How to explain that in English? Basically, you've reversed the thing.
Exactly as if you want to describe a wolf, and say it's "dog like". Of course that's true, but you imply that the wolf comes from the dog, which is not true. The dog like the wolf are canids, and if they derive from something, they derive from canids.
Back to the topic, the JRPG games are not "anime" like, that makes no sense as they aren't on the same medium. No, but they both usually have a style based on drawing. While the WRPG, like live movies popular in the USA, usually have a style based on real life. This doesn't mean that WRPG are "live movie" like. They just use the same photographic style.

Thus, lots of people believe if they just placate the other genre's most used style on their game, it can fool people in thinking it comes from another region. Actually, there are lots of other unnoticeable things that will make this not true, and nearly impossible to do.

And no, I didn't play Anachronox.