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Forums - Music - Do you think Michael Jackson was guilty?

 

Do you think he was guilty

Yes 18 40.00%
 
No 22 48.89%
 
Not sure 5 11.11%
 
Total:45
LegitHyperbole said:

I don't think so, I think he was just innocent. A pure soul, I'm not even really a fan so I have no skin in it but I just get the sense that he had an innocent mind and wanted a childhood he never had. I don't think it was in him to be a monster.

I used to think similar. But he was a victim of abuse himself and was around sex from a young age. So he definitely didn't have an innocent mind. Also the amount of pornographic material found in his home and a lot of it being bdsm means he definitely didn't have an innocent mind. The innocent childlike persona doesn't really hold much water when he was known to also be a pretty ruthless business man. He also used to hit bubbles.



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pikashoe said:
KhooshMaprit said:

You can answer the question by first answering another question: Was Michael Jackson ever accused by a credible person who didn't want millions of dollars?

If your children were sexually abused, would your first thought turn to how big a settlement could be?

The events of the past few years have surely only enhanced the arguments for Michael Jackson's innocence. Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, R. Kelly, Diddy, Bill Cosby, Jimmy Saville - all predators who had victims that were sincere, credible, and didn't want a penny. And in the end the respective cases for all of their guilt were overwhelming (tragically, Jimmy Saville never lived to face the consequences of his horrific actions).

In the case of Michael Jackson, however, he had "victims" who only ever equated justice with millions of dollars.

I don't see an issue with people wanting money from the man that raped there children. We know for a 100% fact that he spent a lot of time with all of his accusers. That he slept in the same bed as his accusers. That he spent time alone with the accusers without adults present. We know that he had nude photos of minors in his home. We know that a child was able to accurately describe his penis. We know that in the late 70s he showed an interest in cultures that allow marriage between a 10 year old and 30 year old. We have a letter that he wrote to a child where he says how in love he is with her. We have witnesses that worked for him say they saw him do it. There are real photos of him with his arms around half naked children. Semen stains in his room not belonging to Michael. Pornographic material with accusers fingerprints on them. Corey Feldman said he showed him porn when he was a child. Etc.

The man showed so many signs of being a pedophile, I just cannot understand how anyone could say he was definitely not guilty. I can understand not being sure. I'm genuinely shocked so many are voting no here. I assumed I don't know would have been the most popular answer.

This is not true and has been debunked numerous times. Famously, Jordan Chandler said that Michael Jackson was circumcised despite Michael Jackson not being circumcised. That's a pretty big mistake for someone to make when describing a penis they've allegedly seen and been abused by repeatedly.

Most of the rest of what you said is pure conjecture that wouldn't stand up for three seconds in a court of law.



KhooshMaprit said:
pikashoe said:

I don't see an issue with people wanting money from the man that raped there children. We know for a 100% fact that he spent a lot of time with all of his accusers. That he slept in the same bed as his accusers. That he spent time alone with the accusers without adults present. We know that he had nude photos of minors in his home. We know that a child was able to accurately describe his penis. We know that in the late 70s he showed an interest in cultures that allow marriage between a 10 year old and 30 year old. We have a letter that he wrote to a child where he says how in love he is with her. We have witnesses that worked for him say they saw him do it. There are real photos of him with his arms around half naked children. Semen stains in his room not belonging to Michael. Pornographic material with accusers fingerprints on them. Corey Feldman said he showed him porn when he was a child. Etc.

The man showed so many signs of being a pedophile, I just cannot understand how anyone could say he was definitely not guilty. I can understand not being sure. I'm genuinely shocked so many are voting no here. I assumed I don't know would have been the most popular answer.

This is not true and has been debunked numerous times. Famously, Jordan Chandler said that Michael Jackson was circumcised despite Michael Jackson not being circumcised. That's a pretty big mistake for someone to make when describing a penis they've allegedly seen and been abused by repeatedly.

Most of the rest of what you said is pure conjecture that wouldn't stand up for three seconds in a court of law.

Nope it has actually been proven true numerous times. The circumcision part is pretty easily explained, since the visual difference between erect circumcised and uncircumcised is much less obvious. The more important part is that he was able to describe distinct markings that he had no other way of knowing.

It stood up for months in a court of law. So wrong again. Frankly if you can read everything I said and say he is innocent without a doubt you must be delusional. If he wasn't a pedophile he was doing a very convincing impression of one.



His name wasn't on the Epstein shit. And a lot of his acussers are....



EricFabian said:

His name wasn't on the Epstein shit. And a lot of his acussers are....

He was mentioned and did meet with epstein, although nothing particularly incriminating about him was in the files. I don't think any of his accusers appear in the files. A lot of his friends do appear Chris Tucker, Donald Trump etc.



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pikashoe said:
CourageTCD said:

These two jurors said they were pressured by the other jurors and the other jurors said they were lying. It's these two juror's words against all the others. Even if they were really thinking MJ should have been convicted, they were still in minority and MJ would still be considered not guilty. As for these extremely hard to prove you mentioned, which one were you talking about? The molestiong a minor count, the intoxicating a minor to molest him, the attempted child molestation, the conspiration to hold a whole family captivite or extortion? Or you're telling me that all of these accusations are extremely hard to prove true?

Where have the other jurors called them liars? I've looked and can't find anything to back up what you're saying. I have found that more of the jurors thought that he did molest other children but there wasn't enough evidence for this specific case. If they continued to vote him as guilty it would have been a hung jury, it needs to be unanimous one way or the other. It's all of the accusers, families and witnesses against MJs word. Yes they all are extremely hard to prove. 

There are more accusers. A kid was able to accurately describe MJs penis. Unidentified Semen was found in his room. Porn was found throughout his home. Nude photos of children were found in his home. His bedroom was alarmed. In the late 70s he spoke about 30 year olds marrying 10 year olds in other cultures in a positive way. Kids fingerprints were found on pornographic material in his house. There are literal photos of him holding half naked kids. He slept in the same bed as children. The letters to Jane Doe saying how in love he was with her. Etc.

Also there are allegations of animal abuse. 

And yet he was found not guilty. How come? Because these stuff you brought up are exaggerated, misleading or straight up untruth information. You speak as accusations like sexual assalt are impossible to be proven, but that's not true at all. These types of accusation can be proven true if you have good evidences of it, but in Michael's case, they simple weren't, in none of the more that 10 accusations against him. Testimony were contradictory and people involved were clearly wanting to gain money from Michael. From Evan Chandler, Jordan Chandler's, who wanted money from Michael to begin his life as a screenwriter in Hollywood to Janet Arvizo, Gavin Arvizzo's mother,  who had alredy used their sons to support her fake testimony against a security guard of a J.C. Store for sexual harassment. These stuff can be checked on internet, I'm not making this things up. 



pikashoe said:
EricFabian said:

His name wasn't on the Epstein shit. And a lot of his acussers are....

He was mentioned and did meet with epstein, although nothing particularly incriminating about him was in the files. I don't think any of his accusers appear in the files. A lot of his friends do appear Chris Tucker, Donald Trump etc.

Oprah



CourageTCD said:
pikashoe said:

Where have the other jurors called them liars? I've looked and can't find anything to back up what you're saying. I have found that more of the jurors thought that he did molest other children but there wasn't enough evidence for this specific case. If they continued to vote him as guilty it would have been a hung jury, it needs to be unanimous one way or the other. It's all of the accusers, families and witnesses against MJs word. Yes they all are extremely hard to prove. 

There are more accusers. A kid was able to accurately describe MJs penis. Unidentified Semen was found in his room. Porn was found throughout his home. Nude photos of children were found in his home. His bedroom was alarmed. In the late 70s he spoke about 30 year olds marrying 10 year olds in other cultures in a positive way. Kids fingerprints were found on pornographic material in his house. There are literal photos of him holding half naked kids. He slept in the same bed as children. The letters to Jane Doe saying how in love he was with her. Etc.

Also there are allegations of animal abuse. 

And yet he was found not guilty. How come? Because these stuff you brought up are exaggerated, misleading or straight up untruth information. You speak as accusations like sexual assalt are impossible to be proven, but that's not true at all. These types of accusation can be proven true if you have good evidences of it, but in Michael's case, they simple weren't, in none of the more that 10 accusations against him. Testimony were contradictory and people involved were clearly wanting to gain money from Michael. From Evan Chandler, Jordan Chandler's, who wanted money from Michael to begin his life as a screenwriter in Hollywood to Janet Arvizo, Gavin Arvizzo's mother,  who had alredy used their sons to support her fake testimony against a security guard of a J.C. Store for sexual harassment. These stuff can be checked on internet, I'm not making this things up. 

There are potentially more court cases to come, if he's found guilty will you change your mind?

Only 1-2% of Child SA cases end in conviction. So yeah it is near impossible to get a conviction. 

I get that you admire MJ a lot but surely you must be able to admit that at least some of what he was doing was very questionable.



pikashoe said:
CourageTCD said:

And yet he was found not guilty. How come? Because these stuff you brought up are exaggerated, misleading or straight up untruth information. You speak as accusations like sexual assalt are impossible to be proven, but that's not true at all. These types of accusation can be proven true if you have good evidences of it, but in Michael's case, they simple weren't, in none of the more that 10 accusations against him. Testimony were contradictory and people involved were clearly wanting to gain money from Michael. From Evan Chandler, Jordan Chandler's, who wanted money from Michael to begin his life as a screenwriter in Hollywood to Janet Arvizo, Gavin Arvizzo's mother,  who had alredy used their sons to support her fake testimony against a security guard of a J.C. Store for sexual harassment. These stuff can be checked on internet, I'm not making this things up. 

There are potentially more court cases to come, if he's found guilty will you change your mind?

Only 1-2% of Child SA cases end in conviction. So yeah it is near impossible to get a conviction. 

I get that you admire MJ a lot but surely you must be able to admit that at least some of what he was doing was very questionable.

You don't follow in line with jury's decision now, so clearly, to you, it is only right if the veredict is "guilty". I can't speak for hypothetical decisions, made based on hypothetical proves. The things is, these hypothetical accusations would be being brought up almost 20 years after Michael's passing away, him not being able to defend himself against them.

As for Michael's questionable behaviors, I do agree that sleeping in the same bed with other kids, even if this bed was huge and each individual in it was apart from each other is highly unappropriated. First, it can raise the impression that something have happened there and, even if nothing having happened, it can give the kids the idea that this behavior is appropriated with other adults too, in other beds in other houses. So, he should never have done this



I've been dicussing the merit of the question on the lens of the trial and its decision, talking about how the evidences against him were weak and contraditory and how people wanted to take financial advantage from Michael.

But I also wanna point out another reason why I believe in his innocence. To my Michael Jackson was a humanitarian. In my opinion, in one moment of his life, he decided he would live for a cause, and this cause was raising awareness regarding social, environment problems and specially children care. We can begin to see this with his We Are the World and Man in the Mirror music. By the end of the Bad era, Michael Jackson was already a very wealthy man, and from now on, he decided to advocate in the causes he believed. We can see this reflected on his donations to NGOs and, more importantly, in his music. Starting from Dangerous, he would increse the amount of songs that tackled these issues. Out of 12 songs in the Dangerous album, 5 songs (Black or White, Heal the World, Will You Be There, Keep the Faith and Gone Too Soon) is dedicated to the causes he believed in. Think about it. This a huge risk, dedicating almost half of his album to songs that are not necessarily made to entertain the masses, but to raise awareness. Some of them even don't have the rhythm and beats that would please his target audience as a pop singer. Out of these, only Black or White is a song you would jam into it. Gone Too Soon is not made to be popular whatsoever. And this is repeated again in his next album, HIStory. He includes 4 songs that are not meant to be mainstream pop music you would dance on the flor: They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, Money and, specially Little Susie were songs that could risk the financial sucess of his new album because their lyrics were not about trendy, mainstream things people usually like to listen to. There are other songs that came after, like The Lost Children in his album Invincible and One More Chance. So, to me, his actions speaks for himself. He dedicated awareness to all these social problems and advocated for children care, using his musics, the things he knew how to do the best. Aside from this, he also created Neverland, made it his house and opened to hundreds of children in need so that they could at least have a glimpse of enjoyment in their lives. He did this using his own money and were happy to be around them so that he could see the happiness in their faces. I'm not even mentioning how many times he visited hospitals and such to meet children. Again, theses actions speaks for themselves, in my opinion


And, to finish things off, I would like to talk about how Michael behaved after the accusations against him. After the 1993 accusation, he worked intensely in making songs that demostrated how infuriated he was with all this situation. His album HIStory is almost completely filled with anger, songs that express his sentiments during his era. We have Scream, Tabloid Junkie, This Time Around, Money, and D.S. They were all made in response to the allegations he had suffered. D.S., in particular is very front-load attack on Tom Sneddon, the District Attorney of Santa Barbara, involved in the Jordan Chandler's case. After that we also had Invincible, Unbreakable and Threaned in his Invincible album. To me, he did what an innocent person would do: He was a super rich man, a pop star, so he used that in his favor, created songs to express what he felt and spread his version of the story. Again, this is a risky moviment as these theme are not what the mainstream mass want to consume. People want to consume songs about love, getting lucky and such.

He could have flopped in the Dangerous era, he could have flopped in the History era, but he didn't care. He used his songs to spread what really mattered for him: spread awareness on the causes he believed in and express his anger and frustration with everything that happend to him

Last edited by CourageTCD - 6 hours ago