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Forums - Politics - Do you consider yourself more left or right wing?

 

I am...

More left leaning 52 61.90%
 
More right leaning 32 38.10%
 
Total:84
zorg1000 said:

You’re really glazing over the things Trump/Kirk stand for  when you label it as simply “having different opinions”.

I’m not saying they deserved to be shot but you can’t be on a side that actively promotes division, strips people of their rights, & tries to overthrow democracy then get upset when that results in political violence.

There we go again. "Muh Democracy" and "Muh Trans rights!" I can tell you right now that most of you who spout this nonsense don't gaf about anyone's rights. Minorities, LGBT, Palestine, etc. are all used as just used as props for Democrats to gain and Lord their power over everyone. These are the same people who buried the Iyrana Zarutaka murder, because the murderer was a black guy. Black people only matter to them, when they can paint them as victims to hate on white people.

If anybody promoted division, it's leftists. At least Kirk was willing to listen to the other side's arguments, not shout them down and dox them on social media. 

Last edited by TheMisterManGuy - on 11 September 2025

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TheMisterManGuy said:
zorg1000 said:

You’re really glazing over the things Trump/Kirk stand for  when you label it as simply “having different opinionsâ€Â.

I’m not saying they deserved to be shot but you can’t be on a side that actively promotes division, strips people of their rights, & tries to overthrow democracy then get upset when that results in political violence.

There we go again. "Muh Democracy" and "Muh Trans rights!" I can tell you right now that most of you who spout this nonsense don't gaf about anyone's rights. Minorities, LGBT, Palestine, etc. are all used as just used as props for Democrats to gain and Lord their power over everyone. These are the same people who buried the Iyrana Zarutaka murder, because the murderer was a black guy. Black people only matter to them, when they can paint them as victims to hate on white people.

If anybody promoted division, it's leftists. At least Kirk was willing to listen to the other side's arguments, not shout them down and dox them on social media. 

So according to how you framed it here, there is the dichotomy between people who give lip-service to individual rights of marginalized people and don't listen to opposing views that suggest they shouldn't have them vs. a person who doesn't think large groups of Americans who fall in these groups should have rights ("We made a huge mistake when we passed the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s.", "Homosexuality is akin to alcoholism or drug use", etc) but he was willing to listen to people who think the individual rights should exist, which is the prevailing view that the overwhelming majority of Americans have. 

And you're wondering why people of marginalized groups vote for Democrats? 

Hell, I am not a very strong Democrat. I pretty much hate the party. But if it is a choice between people who want to hurt me (I am non-heterosexual, non-white, and have a disability) and those who pay me lip-service and do nothing, I am obviously going to side with the latter. I really don't care if the first group will listen to me justify my existence as a fully equal member of society. I shouldn't have to be arguing for it in the first place. 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 11 September 2025

sc94597 said:

So according to how you framed it here, there is the dichotomy between people who give lip-service to individual rights of marginalized people and don't listen to opposing views that suggest they shouldn't have them vs. a person who doesn't think large groups of Americans who fall in these groups should have rights ("Civil Rights Act was a big mistake", "Homosexuality is akin to alcoholism or drug use", etc) but he was willing to listen to people who think the individual rights should exist, which is the prevailing view that the overwhelming majority of Americans have. 

And you're wondering why people of marginalized groups vote for Democrats? 

Hell, I am not a very strong Democrat. I pretty much hate the party. But if it is a choice between people who want to hurt me (I am non-heterosexual, non-white, and have a disability) and those who pay me lip-service and do nothing, I am obviously going to side with the latter. I really don't care if the first group will listen to me justify my existence as a fully equal member of society. I shouldn't have to be arguing for it in the first place. 

In regards to what Charlie said about the Civil Rights Act, He's right. The CRA was a mistake, and that's a view shared by most libertarians. You don't need a federal law to protect individual rights of minorities, when freedom of association and the free market will already take care of that. Hell, I'd argue the Civil rights act is one of the reasons behind DEI mandates of modern times. 

Kirk wasn't advocating against groups of people having rights. He was advocating for government to stop enacting nonsense laws like the CRA to fix problems that natural rights of citizens and the free market could already fix. 



TheMisterManGuy said:

In regards to what Charlie said about the Civil Rights Act, He's right. The CRA was a mistake, and that's a view shared by most libertarians. You don't need a federal law to protect individual rights of minorities, when freedom of association and the free market will already take care of that. Hell, I'd argue the Civil rights act is one of the reasons behind DEI mandates of modern times. 

Kirk wasn't advocating against groups of people having rights. He was advocating for government to stop enacting nonsense laws like the CRA to fix problems that natural rights of citizens and the free market could already fix. 

Why weren't the rights of minorities secured and why didn't the free-market take care of it for the hundred years between the 13th thru 15th Amendments and the CRA? That's a pretty long time for the "free-market" to drop the ball. If your argument is that the market wasn't free, then it is pretty useless to talk about "the free market" that never existed ever. 

Even still, most right-wing "libertarians" support the first two civil rights acts, even if they don't support the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Barry Goldwater, for example, supported the CRA of 1957 and the CRA of 1960. He didn't support the 1964 law mostly because of Title VII and II. He was mostly in favor of everything else in it. He also regretted not voting for it. 

Charlie's language didn't discern between them, and he specifically used it in reference to Title IX, which no libertarian should oppose if they were aware of the inequalities in the Jim Crow states. 

"Title IX made it easier to move civil rights cases from U.S. state courts to federal court. This was of crucial importance to civil rights activists who contended that they could not get fair trials in state courts."

Last edited by sc94597 - on 11 September 2025

TheMisterManGuy said:

There we go again. "Muh Democracy" and "Muh Trans rights!" I can tell you right now that most of you who spout this nonsense don't gaf about anyone's rights. Minorities, LGBT, Palestine, etc. are all used as just used as props for Democrats to gain and Lord their power over everyone. These are the same people who buried the Iyrana Zarutaka murder, because the murderer was a black guy. Black people only matter to them, when they can paint them as victims to hate on white people.

If anybody promoted division, it's leftists. At least Kirk was willing to listen to the other side's arguments, not shout them down and dox them on social media. 

It was not ignored:

CNN: Video shows fatal stabbing of Ukrainian refugee on Charlotte light rail — stirring debate on crime in major US cities

PBS: Charlotte officials under fire after man with long criminal history kills Ukrainian refugee on train

Everyday in the US, there are around 63 murders. How many of those do you think you hear about? And why do you think you only hear about maybe 1 out of every few thousand murders. 

The ones you do hear about, get shared because they're expected to be particularly controversial or notable - maybe because you can politicize it. Maybe because it's a particularly horrible case.

Right wingers want to politicize cases like these, because it helps divide. Left wingers don't have that same incentive to report on that news. 

Democrats aren't a singular block, a lot of them absolutely don't care about trans issues, some of them absolutely do.    

TheMisterManGuy said:

In regards to what Charlie said about the Civil Rights Act, He's right. The CRA was a mistake, and that's a view shared by most libertarians. You don't need a federal law to protect individual rights of minorities, when freedom of association and the free market will already take care of that. Hell, I'd argue the Civil rights act is one of the reasons behind DEI mandates of modern times. 

Kirk wasn't advocating against groups of people having rights. He was advocating for government to stop enacting nonsense laws like the CRA to fix problems that natural rights of citizens and the free market could already fix. 

There's not really a such things as natural rights of citizens. Almost every right has to be supported by the culture or the country.

If your culture doesn't support black people drinking from the same water fountain, and it looks the other way when white people murder black murder in revenge, then who is protecting that right? 

Who is protecting free speech, if someone gets murdered for saying the wrong things? 

We also don't have a free market, unless some major things change - and generally the people arguing for those changes, aren't actually advocating for a free market. Because they're generally just changing who's in control of situations. 



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TheMisterManGuy said:
sc94597 said:

So according to how you framed it here, there is the dichotomy between people who give lip-service to individual rights of marginalized people and don't listen to opposing views that suggest they shouldn't have them vs. a person who doesn't think large groups of Americans who fall in these groups should have rights ("Civil Rights Act was a big mistake", "Homosexuality is akin to alcoholism or drug use", etc) but he was willing to listen to people who think the individual rights should exist, which is the prevailing view that the overwhelming majority of Americans have. 

And you're wondering why people of marginalized groups vote for Democrats? 

Hell, I am not a very strong Democrat. I pretty much hate the party. But if it is a choice between people who want to hurt me (I am non-heterosexual, non-white, and have a disability) and those who pay me lip-service and do nothing, I am obviously going to side with the latter. I really don't care if the first group will listen to me justify my existence as a fully equal member of society. I shouldn't have to be arguing for it in the first place. 

In regards to what Charlie said about the Civil Rights Act, He's right. The CRA was a mistake, and that's a view shared by most libertarians. You don't need a federal law to protect individual rights of minorities, when freedom of association and the free market will already take care of that. Hell, I'd argue the Civil rights act is one of the reasons behind DEI mandates of modern times. 

Kirk wasn't advocating against groups of people having rights. He was advocating for government to stop enacting nonsense laws like the CRA to fix problems that natural rights of citizens and the free market could already fix. 

I’m having a hard time comprehending the stupidity of this post……..we don’t need laws protecting individual rights because the free market will take care of that? What the fuck are you going on about?

Did the free market abolish slavery? Did it bring about women’s suffrage? Did it regulate child labor? Did it provide the elderly with pensions & healthcare? Did it legalize gay marriage? Did it protect the disabled? Did it attempt to clean up the air & water?

The “free market” doesn’t give a fuck about anybody’s individual rights, it cares about selling goods and turning profits.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

"John Brown was a man of violence; he would have scorned anybody’s attempt to make him out anything else. And once a person is a believer in violence, it is with him only a question of the most effective way of applying it, which can be determined only by a knowledge of conditions and means at his disposal. John Brown did not shrink at all from conspiratorial methods. Those who have read the autobiography of Frederick Douglas and the Reminiscences of Lucy Colman, will recall that one of the plans laid by John Brown was to organize a chain of armed camps in the mountains of West Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee, send secret emissaries among the slaves inciting them to flee to these camps, and there concert such measures as times and conditions made possible for further arousing revolt among the enslaved.

John Brown was there, mixing in all the violence, conspiratorial or open; he was 'a horse-thief and a murderer,' in the eyes of decent, peaceable, political actionists. And there is no doubt that he stole horses, sending no notice in advance of his intention to steal them, and that he killed pro-slavery men. He struck and got away a good many times before his final attempt on Harper’s Ferry. If he did not use dynamite, it was because dynamite had not yet appeared as a practical weapon. He made a great many more intentional attacks on life than the two brothers Secretary Dobbs condemns for their 'murderous methods.'

And yet history has not failed to understand John Brown. Mankind knows that though he was a violent man, with human blood upon his hands, who was guilty of high treason and hanged for it, yet his soul was a great, strong, unselfish soul, unable to bear the frightful crime which kept 4,000,000 people held like animals, and thought that making war against it was a sacred, a God-called duty, (for John Brown was a very religious man — a Presbyterian).

>It is by and because of the direct acts of the forerunners of social change, whether they be of peaceful or warlike nature, that the Human Conscience, the conscience of the mass, becomes aroused to the need for change. It would be very stupid to say that no good results are ever brought about by political action; sometimes good things do come about that way. But never until individual rebellion, followed by mass rebellion, has forced it. Direct action is always the clamorer, the initiator, through which the great sum of indifferentists become aware that oppression is getting intolerable."

-Voltairine DeCleyre


Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

1. That actually makes a lot of sense, since that time period people have become much more individualistic which could explain the mindset of “does this benefit me?â€Â rather than “does this benefit society?â€Â

2. I can’t speak for the “leftâ€Â as a whole but my view on taxes is basically that the Bush & Trump cuts were a mistake and the Clinton era rates found a healthy balance that allowed us to have a budget surplus while also being able to increase spending on infrastructure, education, healthcare and create the Child Tax Credit.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/

With the exception of one time spending bills to combat the Great Recession & COVID-19, these tax cuts are responsible for 90% of the increase to the debt ratio. We had found the sweet spot of taxes rates that allowed for a balanced budget, the economy to thrive and continue to invest in things that help the working class……we threw that all away so rich people could get richer.

Agreed.  Clinton had a great balance and was fair.  Taxes were fine.  I'm happy to take on more taxes, when someone (like you did) provides what "tax the rich means."  Going back to the Clinton days is fair.  

Thanks for providing metrics not silly cartoons.  

No problem!

The thing that is hard about simply going back to Clinton tax rates is that while the Bush/Trump cuts were skewed towards the rich, they did also include cuts for the middle class (I’ve seen estimates put it at an 80/20 split) and it’s political suicide to increase taxes on the middle class so that means the taxes on the rich would likely need to be a bit higher than the Clinton days to offset the middle class cuts.

Looking at the Biden tax proposals:

Increase top corporate tax rate from 21% to 28% (halfway between Pre-Trump & Trump rates)

Raise minimum corporate tax rate from 15% to 21% for corporations with profits over $1 billion

Raise stock buyback tax from 1% to 4%

Return top income bracket to 39.6% for individuals making over $400,000 and couples making over $450,000

Apply Social Security taxes to income over $400,000

Increase Medicare tax from 3.8% to 5% for income over $400,000

Tax capital gains at the same rate as income

25% minimum billionaire tax

Some other, extremely wonky taxes



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

Agreed.  Clinton had a great balance and was fair.  Taxes were fine.  I'm happy to take on more taxes, when someone (like you did) provides what "tax the rich means."  Going back to the Clinton days is fair.  

Thanks for providing metrics not silly cartoons.  

No problem!

The thing that is hard about simply going back to Clinton tax rates is that while the Bush/Trump cuts were skewed towards the rich, they did also include cuts for the middle class (I’ve seen estimates put it at an 80/20 split) and it’s political suicide to increase taxes on the middle class so that means the taxes on the rich would likely need to be a bit higher than the Clinton days to offset the middle class cuts.

Looking at the Biden tax proposals:

Increase top corporate tax rate from 21% to 28% (halfway between Pre-Trump & Trump rates)

Raise minimum corporate tax rate from 15% to 21% for corporations with profits over $1 billion

Raise stock buyback tax from 1% to 4%

Return top income bracket to 39.6% for individuals making over $400,000 and couples making over $450,000

Apply Social Security taxes to income over $400,000

Increase Medicare tax from 3.8% to 5% for income over $400,000

Tax capital gains at the same rate as income

25% minimum billionaire tax

Some other, extremely wonky taxes

I do think part of the problem is most don't know how taxes work, so rising taxes gets a huge push back.  

Like increasing Medicare from 3.8 to 5%.  If someone makes 450k, most think that 5% applies to the entire 450k, when it doesn't.  It applies to the 50k above 400k. 

I'm not saying you don't understand how taxes work, but the average American doesn't, which is why so many oppose.  

I had a coworker a long time ago who didn't want want his annual raise because it was going to take him from 98k to 100k and his tax rate was going to increase, and has was going to make less money.  I could not get him to accept the increase tax rate was on the 2k, not applied for the first 98k.  Tbe first 98k was going to be taxed as per usual.



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Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

No problem!

The thing that is hard about simply going back to Clinton tax rates is that while the Bush/Trump cuts were skewed towards the rich, they did also include cuts for the middle class (I’ve seen estimates put it at an 80/20 split) and it’s political suicide to increase taxes on the middle class so that means the taxes on the rich would likely need to be a bit higher than the Clinton days to offset the middle class cuts.

Looking at the Biden tax proposals:

Increase top corporate tax rate from 21% to 28% (halfway between Pre-Trump & Trump rates)

Raise minimum corporate tax rate from 15% to 21% for corporations with profits over $1 billion

Raise stock buyback tax from 1% to 4%

Return top income bracket to 39.6% for individuals making over $400,000 and couples making over $450,000

Apply Social Security taxes to income over $400,000

Increase Medicare tax from 3.8% to 5% for income over $400,000

Tax capital gains at the same rate as income

25% minimum billionaire tax

Some other, extremely wonky taxes

I do think part of the problem is most don't know how taxes work, so rising taxes gets a huge push back.  

Like increasing Medicare from 3.8 to 5%.  If someone makes 450k, most think that 5% applies to the entire 450k, when it doesn't.  It applies to the 50k above 400k. 

I'm not saying you don't understand how taxes work, but the average American doesn't, which is why so many oppose.  

I had a coworker a long time ago who didn't want want his annual raise because it was going to take him from 98k to 100k and his tax rate was going to increase, and has was going to make less money.  I could not get him to accept the increase tax rate was on the 2k, not applied for the first 98k.  Tbe first 98k was going to be taxed as per usual.

For sure, I’ve had coworkers say similar things in the past, “I don’t want to go up a tax bracket and end up making less!” Or “It’s not worth getting overtime after a certain amount of hours because taxes take it all!”

Overall, our country is financially and politically illiterate but even worse than that, so many people are willfully ignorant. They don’t understand something and put in zero effort to try and learn about it or when given an explanation, they bury their head in the sand and don’t want to hear logic.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.