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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Console with the best post-replacement lineup, pre-PS4/XBO

Kyuu 1 day ago
killer7 said:
Kyuu said:

Well yeah if they want to play next gen exclusives then they'll need to upgrade. It's just how it is every gen, but the key difference this time is prices are much higher than what console gamers are used to, and the economy is weaker.

I wish I knew why Rockstar refuses to port GTA5 to Switch, it's one of these questions that don't seem to have a good answer, like Vanillaware's refusal to put their games on PC lol. But putting this aside, it's not at all ridiculous that Xbox continues to get a strong 3rd party support. Scaling your game to work on Xbox consoles is very cheap and easy, and the target isn't Xbox consoles alone, but every system close enough to their specs. Switch is too underpowered and will require extra development time and costs for most AA/AAA games to work on it. It's just not deemed cost-effective by many publishers to port every game on it. Series S and comparable PC's (and potentially Switch 2 as well) are above the minimum specs required to run most AA/AAA games (so far) acceptably. 

Whatever the reason, this gen's games including exclusives are running just fine on a SteamDeck which is more or less a portable PS4. One of the few exceptions is Monster Hunter Wilds (which isn't even a great looking game so I don't know wtf is going on). I no longer think the problem is old console holding back the current generation, it's more an issue of developers failing to make use of current gen hardware to create things that are difficult to downscale to systems as old and weak as a PS4.

Graphics are getting better as devs learning to use the hardware. That would have been an argument for earlier consoles, f.e. the PS3 but today's systems share the same architechture. Its not new tech you need to "learn to use".

Yes, regardless of why, current gen hardware aren't doing anything extraordinary. So there is little reason in making your games exclusive to them as long as older systems still retain a large active playerbase, and as long as downporting doesn't cost a fortune.

Last edited by Kyuu - 1 day ago

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HoloDust 1 day ago
curl-6 said:

This feels like cheating a bit due to the weird circumstances, but the Atari 2600 got some good stuff after the release of the failed 5200, such as Dig Dug, Solaris, Pole Position, Jr Pac Man, Crossbow, and Mario Bros.

You're right, it feels a bit...off - but Atari 2600 is probably a clear winner with amount of really good games that it had from 1983 onward, from arcade to 8-bit home computer ports.



killer7 21 hours ago
Kyuu said:
killer7 said:

Graphics are getting better as devs learning to use the hardware. That would have been an argument for earlier consoles, f.e. the PS3 but today's systems share the same architechture. Its not new tech you need to "learn to use".

Yes, regardless of why, current gen hardware aren't doing anything extraordinary. So there is little reason in making your games exclusive to them as long as older systems still retain a large active playerbase, and as long as downporting doesn't cost a fortune.

So you want to say, that the hardware gap between Gen 9 and Gen 8 is not huge? I mean that was the case from gen 7 to gen 8 but there is a massive jump between PS4 and PS5 and even larger for Xbox One to Xbox Series X.



curl-6 10 hours ago
killer7 said:
Kyuu said:

Yes, regardless of why, current gen hardware aren't doing anything extraordinary. So there is little reason in making your games exclusive to them as long as older systems still retain a large active playerbase, and as long as downporting doesn't cost a fortune.

So you want to say, that the hardware gap between Gen 9 and Gen 8 is not huge? I mean that was the case from gen 7 to gen 8 but there is a massive jump between PS4 and PS5 and even larger for Xbox One to Xbox Series X.

The jump from PS3/360 to PS4/XBO was bigger than the jump from PS4/XBO to PS5/Xbox Series due to diminishing returns.

At any rate, crossgen releases are becoming less common as the active userbase on last gen systems wanes.



Kyuu 8 hours ago
curl-6 said:
killer7 said:

So you want to say, that the hardware gap between Gen 9 and Gen 8 is not huge? I mean that was the case from gen 7 to gen 8 but there is a massive jump between PS4 and PS5 and even larger for Xbox One to Xbox Series X.

The jump from PS3/360 to PS4/XBO was bigger than the jump from PS4/XBO to PS5/Xbox Series due to diminishing returns.

At any rate, crossgen releases are becoming less common as the active userbase on last gen systems wanes.

Most PS5 and current gen exclusives run just fine on SteamDeck which is virtually a PS4. So I don't think crossgen ending will lead to any incredible results, most games would still run on the SteamDeck maybe until PS5+PS6 crossgen starts and many games become super demanding.

In addition to diminishing returns, I think this generation's achilles heel is the low RAM, which only doubled or tripled in capacity and bandwidth (and this is without counting midgen upgrades and Series S).



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Pemalite 7 hours ago
Kyuu said:

Most PS5 and current gen exclusives run just fine on SteamDeck which is virtually a PS4. So I don't think crossgen ending will lead to any incredible results, most games would still run on the SteamDeck maybe until PS5+PS6 crossgen starts and many games become super demanding.

In addition to diminishing returns, I think this generation's achilles heel is the low RAM, which only doubled or tripled in capacity and bandwidth (and this is without counting midgen upgrades and Series S).

Correct. Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 only doubled the DRAM capacity of the prior-console generation.

But installed RAM is only one part of the equation, usable RAM is the important factor...

Microsoft actually made their OS/Background usage less DRAM hungry thanks to the SSD being in every console, so they managed to free up an extra Gigabyte.
Meaning: 5GB vs 14GB is usable for games.

Makes it look far more significant than just a doubling, right?

But this console generation is definitely DRAM limited, no getting around that, especially when you start pushing towards 4k with RT effects, even PC struggles with 16GB System+12GB VRAM (28GB total).


Bandwidth? Well.
We went from 68.3GB/s for Xbox and 176GB/s for Playstation.
To ending up with: 560GB/s for Xbox and 448GB/s for Playstation.

Microsoft saw a catastrophic increase if we ignore the eSRAM Cache.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Kyuu 5 hours ago
Pemalite said:
Kyuu said:

Most PS5 and current gen exclusives run just fine on SteamDeck which is virtually a PS4. So I don't think crossgen ending will lead to any incredible results, most games would still run on the SteamDeck maybe until PS5+PS6 crossgen starts and many games become super demanding.

In addition to diminishing returns, I think this generation's achilles heel is the low RAM, which only doubled or tripled in capacity and bandwidth (and this is without counting midgen upgrades and Series S).

Correct. Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 only doubled the DRAM capacity of the prior-console generation.

But installed RAM is only one part of the equation, usable RAM is the important factor...

Microsoft actually made their OS/Background usage less DRAM hungry thanks to the SSD being in every console, so they managed to free up an extra Gigabyte.
Meaning: 5GB vs 14GB is usable for games.

Makes it look far more significant than just a doubling, right?

But this console generation is definitely DRAM limited, no getting around that, especially when you start pushing towards 4k with RT effects, even PC struggles with 16GB System+12GB VRAM (28GB total).


Bandwidth? Well.
We went from 68.3GB/s for Xbox and 176GB/s for Playstation.
To ending up with: 560GB/s for Xbox and 448GB/s for Playstation.

Microsoft saw a catastrophic increase if we ignore the eSRAM Cache.

Yes RAM available for developers and SSD are precisely why I added "or triple". My bandwidth comparison was mainly PS5 vs PS4 because Xbox One's eSRAM's effect is hard to quantify and compare. Series X has 6 GBs running slower at 336 GB/s, which I recall one or two developers complaining about.

The elephant in the room is Series S being mandated (8GB~ RAM for developers at 224 GB/s). When Series S is factored in, it's fair to say this is the weakest generational jump since GameCube to Wii, even without taking into account diminishing returns (smaller jumps in specs led to more noticeable improvements).



killer7 3 hours ago

Its not the biggest but deffinitly not the weakest generational jump! For PS3- PS4/ Xbox 360- Xbox One i saw less of a jump: The format stayed the same (BD- at least for PS3- PS4), as well as the resolution (720p- 900p/1080p). It wasn't until PS4Pro,more even Xbox One X when the jump became more obvious. But as games where developed with te vanilla consoles in mind,that did not help a lot. The PS4Pro was the first true 1080p console if you like, despite Sony trying to market it as a 4K console! The first console to feature true 4K was te Xbox One X. But 4k did not become a standard before PS5 and Xbox Series X.



HoloDust 2 hours ago
killer7 said:

Its not the biggest but deffinitly not the weakest generational jump! For PS3- PS4/ Xbox 360- Xbox One i saw less of a jump: The format stayed the same (BD- at least for PS3- PS4), as well as the resolution (720p- 900p/1080p). It wasn't until PS4Pro,more even Xbox One X when the jump became more obvious. But as games where developed with te vanilla consoles in mind,that did not help a lot. The PS4Pro was the first true 1080p console if you like, despite Sony trying to market it as a 4K console! The first console to feature true 4K was te Xbox One X. But 4k did not become a standard before PS5 and Xbox Series X.

Technically, when you look at Xbox360 to Xbox One, vs Xbox One to Xbox Series X, yes, latter is actually bigger jump. The thing is, perceived jump is much smaller and those base consoles are bare minimum for generational jump to start with.

Rarely any game renders at 4K native on base 9th gen consoles, and no AAA game I know of (unless it's last gen upgrade).