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Forums - Politics Discussion - 2024 US Presidential Election

sc94597 said:
curl-6 said:

There's no way to sugarcoat it, this is a resounding rejection of the Democrat platform.

Nope, much of the Democratic platform is being passed at the state-level currently, and is very popular among conservatives. Some examples I mentioned in the quoted post below, but another example is that Nebraska (a mostly red state) just had an amendment for paid sick leave pass. The last few presidential elections haven't been about  actual platforms or policies. It is why the GOP stopped releasing manifestos in 2016. Everything is vibe-based. Mid-terms are the platform/policy elections, and Democrats have been doing very well in them. 

sc94597 said:

It isn't clear to me that policies are the issue and reason why Democrats lost. For the following reasons: 

1. When doing blind studies Americans preferred Harris's policies. 

2. In certain states, like Colorado, where the same or even more left-wing policies were messaged differently (framed as saving Americans money overall) Democrats over-performed. 

3. We are seeing an anti-incumbency wave globally caused by inflation. Democrats were fighting an up-hill battle to win this election, being the incumbent party. They actually fared better than other incumbent parties globally, containing a lot of their losses. We already know that many working class people voted only on the presidential ticket for Trump for this single reason. That's why Democrats did relatively better in some of the down-ballot races than they did for the presidential election. See: Michigan, Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, and maybe even Pennsylvania (depending on how the last few counts and recount goes.) 


4. In many states that rejected Democrats, progressive referendum showed majority support for their policies. For example, in Missouri a minimum wage of 15 dollars and an abortion protection amendment passed. In Florida a majority voted to legalize recreational marijuana and for a pro-abortion amendment, it didn't pass because the state requires 60% of the vote and the votes were in the low and high 50% respectively. In Arizona a pro-abortion amendment passed. 

5. This election wasn't even about policy. Mid-term elections are the policy elections and Democrats have been doing much better in those lately. Neither candidate really talked too much about their policies, and the popular ones were adopted by both. 

Trump probably won this election for three main reasons: 1. inflation and the anti-incumbency wave across the globe caused by it, 2. he is charismatic and does better than the average GOP, people like his authoritarian brashness and anti-establishment pose, and 3. Harris focused too much on trying to secure the vote of a group that doesn't exist anymore (Bush Republicans/Neocons) rather than activating her base. 

She didn't lose because she is a woman or because she is a person of color either. Many women and people of color in the swing states out-performed her. Yes that is another thing that limits her ability to gather votes, but if #1, #2, and #3 didn't exist she probably would have won despite this. 

Edit: Also, Biden shouldn't have run in the first place. He ran in 2020 on being a one-term president and should have stuck with that. There should have been a primary last year. 

That's the thing though, it doesn't matter if people like your policies or not if at the end of the day they still decide to cast their vote against you and what they perceive you to stand for.

It's less that they dislike Democratic policies per se and more that the dislike the "idea" of your party. As you say, it's vibes. The Democratic platform was seen as "the status quo" by a population who are pissed off and want change. 

Trump was able to speak to that discontent, much as Biden rode the wave of people pissed off with Trump in 2020.



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curl-6 said:

That's the thing though, it doesn't matter if people like your policies or not if at the end of the day they still decide to cast their vote against you and what they perceive you to stand for.

It's less that they dislike Democratic policies per se and more that the dislike the "idea" of your party. As you say, it's vibes. The Democratic platform was seen as "the status quo" by a population who are pissed off and want change. 

Trump was able to speak to that discontent, much as Biden rode the wave of people pissed off with Trump in 2020.

Sure, but perception -- what people think they are calling for, is totally different from their platform -- what they are actually calling for. This wasn't a rejection of the Democratic platform, as you originally stated. Their platform is popular and fine. It's a rejection of their ability to project a message and act against opponents who outright lie. 

Living in a swing state, the commercials from the GOP side were things like "Kamala supports paid transgendered surgeries for criminals." "Border czar Kamala wants to protect rapist and murderer illegals." And other wacko shit that I can guarantee the overwhelming majority of people don't support. 

Democrats were punished for inflation that was something every developed country in the world experienced because the stimulus that caused it was necessary for more people to not die of COVID, and to prevent a global recession. A large part of that stimulus happened under Trump in 2020. 

The Democrats aren't my party by the way. I am a left-wing independent who votes for Democrats out of them being a lesser of two evils, but honestly probably disagrees with them 40% of the time. 



sc94597 said:
curl-6 said:

That's the thing though, it doesn't matter if people like your policies or not if at the end of the day they still decide to cast their vote against you and what they perceive you to stand for.

It's less that they dislike Democratic policies per se and more that the dislike the "idea" of your party. As you say, it's vibes. The Democratic platform was seen as "the status quo" by a population who are pissed off and want change. 

Trump was able to speak to that discontent, much as Biden rode the wave of people pissed off with Trump in 2020.

Sure, but perception -- what people think they are calling for, is totally different from their platform -- what they are actually calling for. This wasn't a rejection of the Democratic platform, as you originally stated. Their platform is popular and fine. It's a rejection of their ability to project a message and act against opponents who outright lie. 

Living in a swing state, the commercials from the GOP side were things like "Kamala supports paid transgendered surgeries for criminals." "Border czar Kamala wants to protect rapist and murder illegals." And other wacko shit that I can guarantee the overwhelming majority of people don't support. 

Democrats were punished for inflation that was something every developed country in the world experienced because the stimulus that caused it was necessary for more people to not die of COVID, and to prevent a global recession. 

The Democrats aren't my party by the way. I am a left-wing independent who votes for Democrats out of them being a lesser of two evils, but honestly probably disagrees with them 40% of the time. 

Party rather than platform would have been the better term then, I will amend.

Maybe I am naïve but I think most people don't believe the more wacko insane shit, (many people clearly do, I just doubt it's a majority) and more that most people care more about their own immediate comfort and wellbeing than issues that they don't feel affect them personally.

It's easy for people who struggle to put food on the table to roll their eyes at a lot of leftist ideals or issues and decide to stick it to a party that they see as not doing enough to help them, regardless of whether the alternative is any better.



curl-6 said:
 

Party rather than platform would have been the better term then, I will amend.

Maybe I am naïve but I think most people don't believe the more wacko insane shit, (many people clearly do, I just doubt it's a majority) and more that most people care more about their own immediate comfort and wellbeing than issues that they don't feel affect them personally.

It's easy for people who struggle to put food on the table to roll their eyes at a lot of leftist ideals or issues and decide to stick it to a party that they see as not doing enough to help them, regardless of whether the alternative is any better.

I'd say that the Democratic Party's message this year (and in fact since 2022) toned down quite a bit on cultural issues. They won in 2020, the same year "defund the police", "abolish ICE", and other sentiments were common among a third of the base. That is when the Democratic party and its base were most "woke". 

Their main thesis and message this time was that Trump posed an existential risk to democracy. Which isn't untrue or trivial, but obviously most Americans who voted don't care. 

Kamala heavily de-emphasized  being a women or a person of color (unlike, for example Clinton, who obsessed about being the first woman president.) When people asked her about Trump's racism directed to her, she would say things like "this isn't new for him" and then just move on. 

The real problem is that in the last month of her campaign all Kamala did was try to court Bush Republicans/Neocons, who barely exist anymore, and ignored the working class part of her base. She did have good economic policies that would benefit the less-educated working class, like removing education requirements for federal positions that don't need them, or the first time homeowner subsidies, but these policies didn't get media presence. 

If there were an actual primary last year, she could have distanced herself from Biden and have her policies better communicated. That's probably the biggest mistake. Biden should have dropped out last year and allowed for a real primary. 

 



sc94597 said:
curl-6 said:

Party rather than platform would have been the better term then, I will amend.

Maybe I am naïve but I think most people don't believe the more wacko insane shit, (many people clearly do, I just doubt it's a majority) and more that most people care more about their own immediate comfort and wellbeing than issues that they don't feel affect them personally.

It's easy for people who struggle to put food on the table to roll their eyes at a lot of leftist ideals or issues and decide to stick it to a party that they see as not doing enough to help them, regardless of whether the alternative is any better.

I'd say that the Democratic Party's message this year (and in fact since 2022) toned down quite a bit on cultural issues. They won in 2020, the same year "defund the police", "abolish ICE", and other sentiments were common among a third of the base. That is when the Democratic party and its base were most "woke". 

Their main thesis and message this time was that Trump posed an existential risk to democracy. Which isn't untrue or trivial, but obviously most Americans who voted don't care. 

Kamala heavily de-emphasized  being a women or a person of color (unlike, for example Clinton, who obsessed about being the first woman president.) When people asked her about Trump's racism directed to her, she would say things like "this isn't new for him" and then just move on. 

The real problem is that in the last month of her campaign all Kamala did was try to court Bush Republicans/Neocons, who barely exist anymore, and ignored the working class part of her base. She did have good economic policies that would benefit the less-educated working class, like removing education requirements for federal positions that don't need them, or the first time homeowner subsidies, but these policies didn't get media presence. 

If there were an actual primary last year, she could have distanced herself from Biden and have her policies better communicated. That's probably the biggest mistake. Biden should have dropped out last year and allowed for a real primary. 

 

They did mostly avoid "woke" issues in her short lived campaign, yeah, which was definitely the right call, but the resentment built up by that movement over the last several years was still there, and the right's messaging smartly connected the two.

And yeah Biden should never have stood for re-election in the first place. There wasn't much Kamala could do at the very last minute, in the minds of too many she represented a continuation of an unpopular regime. The party was a damaged brand by that point.



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LegitHyperbole said:
RolStoppable said:

When you do eat your pants, put a video of it on YouTube.

I'm confident I will not have to consume a single thread of my pants. I'll soften 'em up and get the butter ready but in no world is little Donald Trump an evil dictator. No one would take him seriously as a dictator, he'd be laughed off stage, he doesn't even have the hands for it. 

Trump isn't evil if you want to use a moral alignment kind of compass.  He is just more so amoral.  His ethics fit what suits him much more than most people.  And he seems to have done many shady things in recently.  So to hell with Trump.  I hope he burns.  

He has also been very lax wrt Russia and its aggression towards Ukraine.  Ryuu can explain it much better but he's also praised Putin and mocked zelensky.  I think that he's got some kind of agreement with Russia even though it will never be proven.  If Trump is going to officially be an isolationist towards Russia, whether he has agreements or not, the real question is what will happen with China in his final term.  Will China invade Taiwan?  This would be the ideal time.  They have a president who doesn't want to meddle with foreign affairs, much less against communist ones.  All trump cares about is the border.   

The problem is that Taiwan produces 90% of the world's semiconductors.  You can do the math and realize that they could start charging out of the ass if they have that monopoly over the rest of the world, and fvcking over everybody.   

This is very worrisome to me.  

Last edited by shavenferret - on 08 November 2024

zorg1000 said:
the-pi-guy said:

I disagreed or would have disagreed on the basis that "Democrats abandoned these groups". I don't think that's true. 

But Democrats as a whole are horrible messengers on a good day. Although I personally think a lot of that comes down to Democrats having an inherently more complicated platform. For one obvious reason trying to appeal to more kinds of groups. 

Chrkeller mentioned Buttigieg, right? 

I was going to point out that Tammy Baldwin won in Wisconsin despite being openly gay and a woman, and did better than Harris did. 

I don't know if Buttigieg would have made a difference, but I think he's a very good messenger. 

Yeah, my biggest argument was that they do in fact support the working class, things like the IIJA/CHIPS/IRA are in many ways blue collar (construction, transportation & manufacturing) jobs programs. One issue is that these are long term investments and the results aren’t felt immediately so Biden/Harris weren’t rewarded for them.

And yes, Democrats have a much harder platform since they try to accommodate as many demographics as possible, go too far in appealing to one group and you risk alienating another. This isn’t nearly as big an issue for Republicans because they are far more homogenous.

And I think that ties into Chrkeller’s point. Democrats should focus their messaging on things that benefit everybody like investing in infrastructure, healthcare, education, housing & child/elder care. These creates jobs and bring down the cost of living for things that everybody needs regardless of their age, race, religion, sex or gender.

Agreed.  Simplify the message, focus only on things everyone benefits from and repeat the message over and over.  

I had a mentor teach me how to present to get someone to buy into my idea.  He had a 3 point presentation view:

1) tell them what you are going tell them 

2) tell them

3) tell them what you told them

Complexity kills liberals because they don't repeat messages.  How many times did trump repeat his message on things like border?  

I further agree they go too far in appealing to specific sub groups, which simply pisses another group off.  

It is all too much.  Focus will win them them the next election.

Edit

Only concern I have is NY and Cali were closer than FL.  Sounds crazy but true, granted votes are still being counted.  Meaning I don't think liberals can wait till next election cycle to rebuild their messenging.  They need to start sooner than later.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 08 November 2024

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shavenferret said:

Will China invade Taiwan?  This would be the ideal time.  They have a president who doesn't want to meddle with foreign affairs, much less against communist ones.  

Some US general expects China to strike in 2027 and talks about them already preparing their army and spending more for military despite their lower economic growth in the past few years. It would fit perfectly into Trump next legislation period.

As the US was spot on with the invasion of Ukraine beforehand, I take such warnings quite seriously.



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sc94597 said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

I have the "benefit" of participating in discussions in both fields, which allows me to have some kind of insight on what both sides think. My ignorant and non scientific view would be:

1) Inflation, Inflation, Inflation. I won't go into specifics as it would require a book instead of a post, but people cannot correlate the increase in GDP and low unemployment with the absurd loss of purchase power the average Joe suffered. A lot of economic growth has come from huge government spending and debt (since Obama 2 but it got much worse under Trump 1 and Biden) which creates inflation. Due to several factors, this does not necessarily reflects on the official government numbers, so Joe Doe looks at "official" inflation rates of 3% but his rent, food, gas, mortgage, everything is WAY more expensive than a few years ago, when Trump was in power. Saying "we have the strongest economy" or "USA GDP is really growing" says nothing to Joe Doe if now he needs to go into credit card debt to pay for everyday stuff.

The inflation of 2021-2024 was caused directly by Covid stimulus. If it was just a matter of the U.S having a more generous stimulus spending during the Obama and pre-Covid Trump periods, then the U.S would be a leader in the pack among developed countries (as most countries took more austere positions after the Great Recession.) But the U.S was about middle of the pack when it came to inflation. 

So yes, increasing the money-supply and injecting it into the economy through stimulus packages is definitely the cause of the 2021-2024 inflation, but what other choice did the U.S government (or any other national government) have? Remember, both Democrats and Republicans voted for the Covid stimulus packages, including the PPP loans, robust unemployment insurance, and the stimulus checks. People were locked down with not much to do, so they went into a spending frenzy. Supply chains couldn't keep up without their former workforce. You were bound to get inflation. But the alternative situation would've been much, much worse. We would've entered a severe recession with unemployment rates in the double-digits and a slow recovery. More people would have died from Covid than those who did. So the inflationary spending was a lesser of two evils, and nobody really was questioning it (other than a few fiscal hawks) in 2020. It's only after Biden was elected that you started to see the rest of conservatives (other than fiscal hawks) start to question it. 

You are 100% correct and I agree with you, but that has been happening for much longer than 2021.

Inflation (as a % of price increase) had been happening long before that but people could not see it through the official number because how the inflation official number is calculated, which does not take into consideration the increase in prices for assets and some other stuff. The money printing machine has been going crazy since 2008 and this is why you see this unnatural increase in stocks and real state. There is where the money ends up going. You know this, but average joe does not. 

The effect just got worse since then, as trump 1 and Biden just went even crazier with spending. Usually it would be the republicans asking for more spending control but even they dont care anymore, it doesnt win votes anymore. Stock market and real state markets do not make sense anymore, and for a long time. But at least the impact was concentrated in these areas.

Then with covid and the stimulus packages and supply chain disruptions shit just hit the fan, because now the money was going straight into average joe pockets, real cash instead of QE, for an economy that just didnt exist for a period. Inflation just exploded all over the world. And I agree with you, the other option would be MUCH worse. In the end all countries in the world except for a few went for the same approach. Monster inflation. Trump elected again.

And he will keep on spending like crazy I am sure. Inflation wont go down. Prices wont go backwards without a recession. Salaries wont magically go up to compensate for it. Average Joe got fucked and there is no going back and in short term. We used inflation to save the economy in 2008 and 2019. It worked. But if fucked most people in different ways and it opened the way for Trump to come back.

Btw I like your analysis, always nice to see a nice discussion



Valdney said:

The American electoral system is the most sophisticated system that civilized men could ever come up with.

As far as the results of this election, I am delighted. Trump will greatly improve the unacceptable situation in our southern border, he will put an end to the madness going on between Ukraine and Russia, the Middle East will quiet down, the USA will be feared again, he will facilitate the energy production in the US (oil and gas), he will tackle our inflation problem by reducing government wasteful spending, he will try to pass tax cuts for people who actually get hurt by it the most (no taxes on tips and overtime is a great idea) and most importantly, he will not use any government fascist institutions to try to take away my bitcoin.

Obs: If you know where to keep your bitcoin it is impossible for anyone to seize it, but governments will try. Trump said it clearly that he is 100 percent for self custody. The bitcoin president

Anyway. The future of these great United States 🇺🇸 is looking great right now. Sorry haters. Not sorry.

Valdney? You gotta be brazilian