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Forums - Politics Discussion - 2024 US Presidential Election

You also can't add completely different polling errors together.  

>CA has an average of +19 Biden on 538, and +21.7 in RCP

One of the biggest polling errors in 2016, was that California went substantially more blue than expected. 

2016 forecast for California

Most polls had Clinton to win about 20 points in California, she ended up winning by just over 30 points.  

And you can't take an average polling error and start adding it to specific polls.  



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zorg1000 said:

There is so much wrong with that post that I don’t even know where to begin

Your lack of faith is why God doesn't talk to you.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

the-pi-guy said:
Shtinamin_ said:

This site below gives the rules on how a party, Democrat, Republican, or third-party would go about changing nominees before the convention, after the convention, and after the election. And has the cut-off dates for every state and D.C.

https://ballotpedia.org/State_laws_and_party_rules_on_replacing_a_presidential_nominee,_2024

This site below gives a brief detail that the Democrat Party will hold a pre-convention on Aug 1 2024 so that they can get Kamala and her VP or whoever on the ballots of states that cut-off before the DNC on Aug 19, 2024.

https://lailluminator.com/2024/07/24/democrat-virtual-vote/

Here's a second witness.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dncs-virtual-roll-call-work-changed-biden-left/story?id=112199407

None of this talks about ballot access for Georgia. 

The note about Georgia: 

>Last day for an Independent and a Political Body Candidate for President and Vice President to file a Nomination Petition to have his/her name placed on the General Election Ballot.

From what I understand, Georgia is based off political group. If you want to start a party, you need to have it in by that deadline. Democrats are already going to be on that ballot.

This guy is the COO for the Secretary of State in Georgia

Shtinamin_ said:

Right now, it looks as though we are in a "honeymoon" season for VP Kamala Harris as the nominee. (Given that she is getting donations, and got the delegate necessary, it looks to be that she will be at the top of the ticket, but I still think the democrat delegates at the DNC will choose someone else). I think once the debates happen, and if Trump wants to debate then it'll happen soon, people will lose the honeymoon energy.

Based on what? 

I've seen absolutely no indication that anyone else is likely to become the candidate. No one comes close. No one is having that conversation except for you.

Shtinamin_ said:

We also know that the 2016 and 2020 election polling had left-leaning biases. I am not adding in 2022 and 2018 given that they weren't presidential years and republicans don't go and vote as much during the inbetween years. The projected bias between the two election years is 4.18 point underestimating Trump. Giving Trump an extra +4.18 points on election day. 
2020 had a polling overestimate of Biden. The polls showed Biden +9.01 with the result actually being Biden +4.5 (hence the +4.51 Trump underestimation projection above). 2016 has Clinton overestimated by +3.85.

This isn't particularly how this works. 

The polling usually has a margin of error of about 3%, that assumes that everyone who says they will vote ends up voting. 

Clinton ended up winning by 2.1%, compared to a 3.6% prediction. 2016 is pretty well within that range. 

Shtinamin_ said:

I will look at CNN's latest poll giving Trump +3. If that stays true (probably won't) then Trump will be at +7.18. This will be a national shift of +12.01 points to a republican top ticket. 2020 was Democrat +4.5 → Republican +7.18 giving us a +11.68 shift.

This isn't how you do statistics. You can't just shift everything over. 

Larger errors are possible, but they are more statistically unlikely. In other words, a 1% error + 1% error doesn't become a 2% error. 

Trying to add these values together is complete nonsense. 

Shtinamin_ said:

Harris has lost appeal from women, latinos, asians, men, 18-34, and 34-49 year olds as well too. The demographics are near the bottom of the page. https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3901

Everything I've seen is that Harris has been reversing a lot of trends.

CNN Poll: Harris improves on Biden’s performance against Trump in early look at new matchup

Shtinamin_ said:

I also recall someone saying that the favorability or job approval rating does not matter. 

Here are the results showing the correlation from job approval to national vote share (popular vote) for President's going for re-election.
Trump 2020 Approval: 45.8% → Vote Share 46.8%
Obama 2012 Approval: 50.0% → Vote Share 51.1%
Bush 2004 Approval 49.5% → Vote Share 50.7%
*Clinton 1996 Approval 54% → Vote Share 49.2%.

*due to an increase of voting for third-party parties

I predict, at least at this moment VP Kamala Harris will receive about 39.7% of the National Vote Share

You're comparing a bunch of presidents in their second term. People who are well known factors.

People don't know who Kamala Harris is, in the same way they knew Bush in 2004. 

That is the problem I brought up. 

Instead try finding the approval ratings of vice presidents compared to their upcoming presidential election. Makes absolutely no sense to compare a vice president running for the first time to several presidents running for their second term.  

It did talk about ballot access. Isn't the Democrat National Committee a Political Body, and wouldn't that make Kamala Harris (if she is chosen) the Political Body Nominee?

If that is not the case then I apologize for the confusion.

The "honeymoon" phase is based on generalized human emotion. When something is new, it gets lots of hype, news, and positive reviews. We see this happen when a new restaurant opens in the city, or when there is a new leader in a company (like Furuwaka for Nintendo).

And I do understand that no one else is talking about the DNC's delegates choosing someone else. And yes given that she is raising funds and got the delegate support as of now it does seem to appear she could be the official presidential nominee. This is a personal hunch of mine.

Ok.

My statement of the shift is not a polling error (though adding the bias did), it was about how the general population is snapshotted to vote at the time of the polls (and polling aggregate). If we look at the polls, we see a national shift. Every election cycle has a national shift, some shift more than others and some shift more to the left or more to the right. This time according to the average raw polls (Trump +2.45) we are seeing around a raw shift of +6.95 to the republicans.

(Edit: I just saw you other post regarding CA and adding other errors). Wouldn't we consider this an aggregate since we are using the average polls from two aggregate poll sites?
Also CA had the final prediction at 58.5% Clinton to 35.5%% Trump, Clinton +23. So yes, CA had a +7 underestimation on Clinton. In 2020 they had +29.2% Biden which was actually spot on. 
RCP had +29.4 Biden, which was overestimated by 0.2, which is rather impressive.
Looking at the data they had Biden before he dropped at +21.7 Biden, I will make the change for CA to return to safe blue on my next prediction (unless future data proves otherwise). Thanks for pointing that out.:)

Your source https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/24/politics/cnn-poll-kamala-harris-donald-trump/index.html talked about her increase in Black and Women voters. You are correct about that, but I also mentioned other demographics that this specific poll does not address (there could be others and if there are pardon my words).

Hmm, I see. I guess that is true that I am comparing Kamala's approval rating to President's running for a second term's approval rating, is that she is running for re-election. She is the right-hand women of President Biden at the moment (apart from his wife). It might not be the most sound logic. So I do understand your position. I'll find VP running for President approval ratings and include only the ones that got the nomination from their party. Numbers in bold won the Presidency. I've learned that polls were not commonly accessible like they are now, or they were never done for the VP.

† John Adams: 1796 Approval N/A → 1796 Vote Share 53.4%
† Thomas Jefferson: 1800 Approval N/A→ 1800 Vote Share 61.4%
† Martin Van Buren: 1836 Approval N/A→ 1836 Vote Share 50.8%
*† John C. Brekenrigde: 1860 Approval N/A→ 1860 Vote Share 18.1%
*† Henry A. Wallace:  1948 Approval N/A→ 1948 Vote Share 2.37%
† Richard Nixon: 1960 Approval N/A→ 1960 Vote Share 49.55%
† Hubert Humphrey: 1968 Approval N/A→ 1968 Vote Share 42.7%
† Richard Nixon: 1969 Approval 59%→ 1968 Vote Share 43.4%
Walter Mondale: 1984 Approval N/A→ 1984 Vote Share 40.6%
George H. W. Bush: 1989 Approval 61%→ 1988 Vote Share 53.4%
Al Gore: 2000 Approval (Favorability) 52% → 2000 Vote Share 48.4%
Joseph R. Biden Jr.: 2009 Approval (Favorability) 49%→ 2020 Vote Share 51.3%

*Ran as 3rd Party
†No Approval or Favorability Ratings for Vice Presidents existed until 1977 as far as I can search. And I am unable to find any polls regarding Walter Mondale.

At least from 1969 with Richard Nixon to 1989 with George H. W. Bush it looks like the approval was vastly greater than their vote share. And President Biden's vote share was greater than the approval over a decade ago within this 3% margin of error. I can only make the same conclusion that either Kamala Harris (if nominated) will either have the same vote share as her approval or favorability rating, or her vote share will be vastly smaller than her approval or favorability rating (though this second half I seriously doubt).

Thanks for the suggestion. :)

Last edited by Shtinamin_ - on 27 July 2024

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Shtinamin_ said:

It did talk about ballot access. Isn't the Democrat National Committee a Political Body, and wouldn't that make Kamala Harris (if she is chosen) the Political Body Nominee?

If that is not the case then I apologize for the confusion.

You responded before I corrected my comment. I said the last articles have nothing to do with Georgia.

The first one specifically talks about "independent" candidates. 

And again, Georgia says she will be on the ballot.

Shtinamin_ said:

The "honeymoon" phase is based on generalized human emotion. When something is new, it gets lots of hype, news, and positive reviews. We see this happen when a new restaurant opens in the city, or when there is a new leader in a company (like Furuwaka for Nintendo).

I know what a honeymoon phase is. I didn't even comment on the honeymoon part. 

I was specifically asking what you were basing DNC picking someone else on.

Shtinamin_ said:

And I do understand that no one else is talking about the DNC's delegates choosing someone else. And yes given that she is raising funds and got the delegate support as of now it does seem to appear she could be the official presidential nominee. This is a personal hunch of mine.

Most of us prefer to engage with facts and not baseless hypotheticals.  

Shtinamin_ said:

Ok.

My statement of the shift is not a polling error (though adding the bias did), it was about how the general population is snapshotted to vote at the time of the polls (and polling aggregate). If we look at the polls, we see a national shift. Every election cycle has a national shift, some shift more than others and some shift more to the left or more to the right. This time according to the average raw polls (Trump +2.45) we are seeing around a raw shift of +6.95 to the republicans.

I'm talking about this part here:

You're adding a bunch of things together that can't be added, you're literally adding an "average bias" of 4.18 in favor of Trump. 

Shtinamin_ said:

We also know that the 2016 and 2020 election polling had left-leaning biases. I am not adding in 2022 and 2018 given that they weren't presidential years and republicans don't go and vote as much during the inbetween years. The projected bias between the two election years is 4.18 point underestimating Trump. Giving Trump an extra +4.18 points on election day. 
2020 had a polling overestimate of Biden. The polls showed Biden +9.01 with the result actually being Biden +4.5 (hence the +4.51 Trump underestimation projection above). 2016 has Clinton overestimated by +3.85.

I will look at CNN's latest poll giving Trump +3. If that stays true (probably won't) then Trump will be at +7.18. This will be a national shift of +11.68 points to a republican top ticket. 2020 was Democrat +4.5 → Republican +7.18 giving us a +11.68 shift.

Wall Street Journal and Forbes/Harris X both give Trump +2, giving Trump with the average bias included at +6.18.

The average between 538 and RCP is +2.45 Trump (538: +3.2 Trump & RCP: +1.7 Trump). Add the average bias and we get a +6.63 Trump.

It's extremely problematic to assume that an average bias of a previous election will be remotely accurate to a new election.

None of these numbers particularly mean anything.

Shtinamin_ said:

I am not adding in 2022 and 2018 given that they weren't presidential years and republicans don't go and vote as much during the inbetween years.

Sorry, I missed this comment earlier. 
This is completely wrong.

Older voters tend to be both conservative/Republicans and they tend to be the ones that show up at elections.

Contrary to your claim, Republicans overperform during midterm elections.

Here's an article from 2014.

>it’s still unclear the extent to which Republicans’ advantage in voter engagement will translate into more actual House and Senate seats

>s. In 2008, for instance, 57.1% of the voting-age population cast ballots — the highest level in four decades — as Barack Obama became the first African American elected president. But two years later only 36.9% voted in the midterm election that put the House back in Republican hands. For Obama’s re-election in 2012, turnout rebounded to 53.7%.

Similar things happened in 2022, when Republicans on a rare occasion had more votes overall.

Democrats seem like they have to get excited to vote for a candidate, whereas Republicans usually seem happy to vote for anything that happens to have an R next to it. 

Republican Gains in 2022 Midterms Driven Mostly by Turnout Advantage

GOP Has Midterm Engagement Advantage



Shtinamin_ said:

We also know that the 2016 and 2020 election polling had left-leaning biases.

Pi-guy already explained that the margin for error is 3%, and that the result ended up within that range.

I think the reason some people don't notice this when they talk about this subject is that they forget that the % only reflects the amount of votes they would get. Not how the electoral college would turn out.

Last edited by Hiku - on 29 July 2024

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Shtinamin_ said:

1. but I still think the democrat delegates at the DNC will choose someone else

2. We also know that the 2016 and 2020 election polling had left-leaning biases. 

1. Based on what?  Please elaborate.  Can't be just a hunch.  This seed of doubt has to have been planted from somewhere.

2. This is another lie propagated by the right.  Clinton had an average spread of just 2.1 points. That's it.  Not the landslide blowout that right wing media always claims or the left-leaning bias you are now suggesting.  A bias requires intent to mislead the poll which is ironic because polls are vetted out specifically for their accuracy, not bias.  And lets not forget that FBI director James Comey re-opened the Clinton email case just a few days before the election.  The Republican party doesn't seem to give a damn about the criminality of their own candidates but we give a damn about ours.



To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. 

https://newrepublic.com/post/184330/trump-loses-mind-devastating-fox-news-poll-kamala-harris

Kamala seems to have a huge lead in Michigan. 



the-pi-guy said:

https://newrepublic.com/post/184330/trump-loses-mind-devastating-fox-news-poll-kamala-harris

Kamala seems to have a huge lead in Michigan. 

Those are favorability ratings, not head-to-head polling. While you'd think they would correlate, I don't believe there has been a single head-to-head (or five-way) poll, showing Harris with a lead in Michigan at this time.



Kamala Harris surging, enthusiasm for her is now +88% for her among Democratic Party voters, this puts her popularity ahead of Trump's smaller Republican voter base.

Interesting how Democratic Voters are literally voting for the candidate for law and order, while the Republican voters have chosen the biggest criminal US Presidential history as their candidate.

Another thing is how these so-called Christians pick a guy who virtually opposes Jesus and the so-called Christian values in every single way. I believe Jesus had a word for people like the Republicans: hypocrites. Sanctimonious hypocrites.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Perfectly normal take.