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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How far away are we from seeing games like Horizon: Zero Dawn and Spiderman 2018 on Switch/Switch 2?

Soundwave said:
Pemalite said:

Not once did I claim that Tears of the Kingdom wasn't a success.
But it sold less than Breath of the Wild.

If the underlying technology is what makes a game successful or not, then using your false prior logic it should have out-sold Breath of the Wild.

Soundwave said:


I don't care what your tech preferences are or what systems you own, it's irrelevant to discussions about the broad market. I only bring this up again because for whatever reason there's the same couple of posters that feel like they must insert that into market discussion, it's just completely non-sensical. I own, I like, etc. etc. here let me give you the memo again -- I don't give a crap what you like or what you own or what you prefer, I don't see what it adds in industry-related discussion.

Except it's very relevant as you keep mentioning other platforms, don't try shifting the goal post because you have empirically lost this debate on every level.

There are tons of next-gen graphics showcases that are selling well.

Another user already mentioned them, so I won't bother repeating them to undermine your constant lies and logical fallacies.

But doing what Trump does and repeating the same lies over and over, isn't going to magically turn them true.

Actually do name all of these graphics driven showcase titles that are made specifically for PS5/XBSX only or RTX 20+ series cards only that are selling huge numbers that aren't,

1.) Made by Sony and generally with a Marvel license attached to it. We know Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart broke even but from Sony's internal leaks it looks like it barely made a profit, they have pushed back a 4th game and cut the budget from what Rift Apart had, for it which indicates the game didn't make big money. Sony's own games obviously get a ton of marketing attention and bundles which a regular publisher is not going to be able to match. 

2.) Or have a unicorn license attached to them like Harry Potter. Most developers cannot afford to simply slap Spider-Man or Harry Potter or Star Wars onto their games and there's only a handful of IP like that even available to begin with. 

If we look at the games that fit into that criteria

Alan Wake II - Graphics showcase. Has won GOTY awards, has Nvidia marketing behind it, still has not broke even. 

Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora - Graphics showcase. Huge IP, had a marketing co-deal with Playstation. Charted one time at I believe no.6 on Circana and then dropped off the face of the earth. Further to that we find this:

Meanwhile, Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora, which released last month, has seen 1.9 million players thus far, according to Henderson, accruing around $133 million in revenue, which is quite a step down from what developer Massive Entertainment’s previous releases managed in their early days, with The Division bringing in $330 million and The Division 2 bringing in $264 million.

So even with one of the biggest movie IPs ever attached they had underwhelming performance compared to something like ... The Division (lol).

Final Fantasy 16 + Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth - Two fairly large budget next-gen games with a big name brand and FF7 itself is hugely iconic. Sales results are very disappointing here. 

Forspoken - Another big "next-gen" graphics blockbuster that Square-Enix was banking on, this one is a full on flop with a budget north of $100 million too. 

Starfield - One of the most expensive and hyped games ever made, nice graphics sure, but no where near the success of other Bethesda games, despite being their best looking game ever made by a good margin. $400 million dollar budget. Has done nothing to drive XBox hardware. 

Immortals Of Aveum - Big budget Unreal Engine 5 showcase title that's all about pushing graphics fidelity with a huge publisher (EA) behind it ... flopped. Half the dev team was laid off after release due to poor sales and just a few months ago another big chunk of the staff that was left was placed into furlough (basically an unpaid leave). Wonderful. 

Senua's Saga: HB2 - Another Unreal 5 Engine title, Microsoft paid $120 million for this studio no doubt hoping for a visual showcase that would drive XBox sales. Instead this is a total flop, Steam numbers below HiFi Rush which sold so badly it got that studio axed altogether. Lets hope Microsoft is generous and won't pull the plug on this studio so fast for the sake of the people who work there and need that paycheque. 

Gotham Knights - Very pretty game, next-gen only, not too far off from Spider-Man 2 in graphics to be honest. Huge IP (Batman) too. Has not sold huge numbers. 

I'm sure there will be graphics heavy games in the future that do sell well, but there are enough examples here to show that the modern industry is changing also and graphics are not the driving force for sales or even a reliable way to make money in the game business anymore. And it's not even like all of these games had poor reviews, the only one that really had outright terrible reviews would be Forspoken and it's not like games with poor reviews have never sold well, there are plenty of examples of games selling well without 9/10 reviews. So that can't be used as an excuse here, if people want next-gen graphics so bad, they sure as fuck aren't buying of the next-gen only games that really try to push the technology. 

I'm sure for instance Deadpool & Wolverine will do great in the future too, that doesn't mean there aren't serious problems with Hollywood movie budgets and the overemphasis on empty special effects that aren't impressing a lot of movie goers any longer. People acknowledge clearly several big budget Hollywood movies of late have bombed or underperformed, you would think on a sales website for gaming there could be some nuanced discussion beyond just "I likey graphix and needs my RAM! Gimme moar!!!!", but I guess not. 

The gaming equivalent to something like Boxofficetheory this website/forum is most certainly not. 

You could literally come with a list like that every generation, just cherry picking and based on the xbox presentation graphics are still being pushed heavy, it's not gonna stop humans always want improvements in everything. as for alan wake 2 remedy is happy with it and it will probably do 4-5 million they are already doing a DLC and finally a physical released that will do wonders for it. 



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zeldaring said:
Soundwave said:

Actually do name all of these graphics driven showcase titles that are made specifically for PS5/XBSX only or RTX 20+ series cards only that are selling huge numbers that aren't,

1.) Made by Sony and generally with a Marvel license attached to it. We know Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart broke even but from Sony's internal leaks it looks like it barely made a profit, they have pushed back a 4th game and cut the budget from what Rift Apart had, for it which indicates the game didn't make big money. Sony's own games obviously get a ton of marketing attention and bundles which a regular publisher is not going to be able to match. 

2.) Or have a unicorn license attached to them like Harry Potter. Most developers cannot afford to simply slap Spider-Man or Harry Potter or Star Wars onto their games and there's only a handful of IP like that even available to begin with. 

If we look at the games that fit into that criteria

Alan Wake II - Graphics showcase. Has won GOTY awards, has Nvidia marketing behind it, still has not broke even. 

Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora - Graphics showcase. Huge IP, had a marketing co-deal with Playstation. Charted one time at I believe no.6 on Circana and then dropped off the face of the earth. Further to that we find this:

Meanwhile, Avatar: Frontiers of Pandora, which released last month, has seen 1.9 million players thus far, according to Henderson, accruing around $133 million in revenue, which is quite a step down from what developer Massive Entertainment’s previous releases managed in their early days, with The Division bringing in $330 million and The Division 2 bringing in $264 million.

So even with one of the biggest movie IPs ever attached they had underwhelming performance compared to something like ... The Division (lol).

Final Fantasy 16 + Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth - Two fairly large budget next-gen games with a big name brand and FF7 itself is hugely iconic. Sales results are very disappointing here. 

Forspoken - Another big "next-gen" graphics blockbuster that Square-Enix was banking on, this one is a full on flop with a budget north of $100 million too. 

Starfield - One of the most expensive and hyped games ever made, nice graphics sure, but no where near the success of other Bethesda games, despite being their best looking game ever made by a good margin. $400 million dollar budget. Has done nothing to drive XBox hardware. 

Immortals Of Aveum - Big budget Unreal Engine 5 showcase title that's all about pushing graphics fidelity with a huge publisher (EA) behind it ... flopped. Half the dev team was laid off after release due to poor sales and just a few months ago another big chunk of the staff that was left was placed into furlough (basically an unpaid leave). Wonderful. 

Senua's Saga: HB2 - Another Unreal 5 Engine title, Microsoft paid $120 million for this studio no doubt hoping for a visual showcase that would drive XBox sales. Instead this is a total flop, Steam numbers below HiFi Rush which sold so badly it got that studio axed altogether. Lets hope Microsoft is generous and won't pull the plug on this studio so fast for the sake of the people who work there and need that paycheque. 

Gotham Knights - Very pretty game, next-gen only, not too far off from Spider-Man 2 in graphics to be honest. Huge IP (Batman) too. Has not sold huge numbers. 

I'm sure there will be graphics heavy games in the future that do sell well, but there are enough examples here to show that the modern industry is changing also and graphics are not the driving force for sales or even a reliable way to make money in the game business anymore. And it's not even like all of these games had poor reviews, the only one that really had outright terrible reviews would be Forspoken and it's not like games with poor reviews have never sold well, there are plenty of examples of games selling well without 9/10 reviews. So that can't be used as an excuse here, if people want next-gen graphics so bad, they sure as fuck aren't buying of the next-gen only games that really try to push the technology. 

I'm sure for instance Deadpool & Wolverine will do great in the future too, that doesn't mean there aren't serious problems with Hollywood movie budgets and the overemphasis on empty special effects that aren't impressing a lot of movie goers any longer. People acknowledge clearly several big budget Hollywood movies of late have bombed or underperformed, you would think on a sales website for gaming there could be some nuanced discussion beyond just "I likey graphix and needs my RAM! Gimme moar!!!!", but I guess not. 

The gaming equivalent to something like Boxofficetheory this website/forum is most certainly not. 

You could literally come with a list like that every generation, just cherry picking and based on the xbox presentation graphics are still being pushed heavy, it's not gonna stop humans always want improvements in everything. as for alan wake 2 remedy is happy with it and it will probably do 4-5 million they are already doing a DLC and finally a physical released that will do wonders for it. 

There's not that many PS5/XSX exclusives to begin with because developers don't want to pay the premium to begin with. Like even Sony has like only a small handful of PS5 only games and that says something when even Sony is hesitant to go all in on this gen. That list is not just one or two cherry picked examples, that is a very accurate listing of major 3rd party releases made for this gen that rely heavily on "next-gen graphics!" as the sales pitch. No less than 9 examples there. Alan Wake II with GOTY nods, Nvidia marketing, great reviews shouldn't be on its knees slowly crawling to even turning a profit, of course in public they will put on a happy face about it, but if graphics were some massive priority to a large portion of the audience, this game should have significantly better sales. 

4 million LTD doesn't cut it when your budget is in the range of 80 million dollars. 

That Avatar game is probably well past $100 mill easy, quite possibly over $150 mill too, great graphics, huge IP, fuck all for an impact in the marketplace. Game faded away like a silent fart. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 12 June 2024

Soundwave said:
zeldaring said:

You could literally come with a list like that every generation, just cherry picking and based on the xbox presentation graphics are still being pushed heavy, it's not gonna stop humans always want improvements in everything. as for alan wake 2 remedy is happy with it and it will probably do 4-5 million they are already doing a DLC and finally a physical released that will do wonders for it. 

There's not that many PS5/XSX exclusives to begin with because developers don't want to pay the premium to begin with. Like even Sony has like only a small handful of PS5 only games and that says something when even Sony is hesitant to go all in on this gen. That list is not just one or two cherry picked examples, that is a very accurate listing of major 3rd party releases made for this gen that rely heavily on "next-gen graphics!" as the sales pitch. No less than 9 examples there. Alan Wake II with GOTY nods, Nvidia marketing, great reviews shouldn't be on its knees slowly crawling to even turning a profit, of course in public they will put on a happy face about it, but if graphics were some massive priority to a large portion of the audience, this game should have significantly better sales. 

4 million LTD doesn't cut it when your budget is in the range of 80 million dollars. 

Just cause something is not exclusive doesn't mean it's not pushing the hardware lol. For example COD MW3 is using the hardware and looks great its like saying Doom is a last gen game cause it ran on switch, and we established a million times already graphics is just part of the package it helps advertise the game. like look at the new doom its looks amazing do you think if it looked like eternal it would get the same reaction. wilds is also already pushing the  consoles to their  limits. you still over here picking cherry picking the same games that many don't even look better then cross gen games.



zeldaring said:
Soundwave said:

There's not that many PS5/XSX exclusives to begin with because developers don't want to pay the premium to begin with. Like even Sony has like only a small handful of PS5 only games and that says something when even Sony is hesitant to go all in on this gen. That list is not just one or two cherry picked examples, that is a very accurate listing of major 3rd party releases made for this gen that rely heavily on "next-gen graphics!" as the sales pitch. No less than 9 examples there. Alan Wake II with GOTY nods, Nvidia marketing, great reviews shouldn't be on its knees slowly crawling to even turning a profit, of course in public they will put on a happy face about it, but if graphics were some massive priority to a large portion of the audience, this game should have significantly better sales. 

4 million LTD doesn't cut it when your budget is in the range of 80 million dollars. 

Just cause something is not exclusive doesn't mean it's not pushing the hardware lol. For example COD MW3 is using the hardware and looks great its like saying Doom is a last gen game cause it ran on switch, and we established a million times already graphics is just part of the package it helps advertise the game. like look at the new doom its looks amazing do you think if it looked like eternal it would get the same reaction. wilds is also already pushing the  consoles to their  limits. you still over here picking cherry picking the same games that many don't even look better then cross gen games.

If graphics is such a priority to a wide part of the market, surely people would want software that showcases next-gen graphics and shows off their hardware. The fact people are content to keep playing last gen games even after buying new hardware says a lot. People are good even with last generation graphics even for "big ticket 3rd party releases" almost 5 years into a successor generation. 

You can hand wave that all you want and make as many excuses for it as you want, but it is a significant difference from previous generations. And this trend is going to get worse not better, next generation's "cross gen" period is going to be even longer and more pronounced with probably some significant devs not even ever making any real "next-gen" games and just staying in the cross-gen comfort zone. 

The days of NES to Super NES/Genesis, SNES to Playstation/N64, PS1/N64 to PS2/GCN/XBox, PS2/XBox to PS3/360 type generational leaps are over. The PS4 was probably the swan song for that. People still upgrade their hardware but the reasons are different and more nuanced and more like people who upgrade their smartphones.

Last edited by Soundwave - on 12 June 2024

Soundwave said:
zeldaring said:

Just cause something is not exclusive doesn't mean it's not pushing the hardware lol. For example COD MW3 is using the hardware and looks great its like saying Doom is a last gen game cause it ran on switch, and we established a million times already graphics is just part of the package it helps advertise the game. like look at the new doom its looks amazing do you think if it looked like eternal it would get the same reaction. wilds is also already pushing the  consoles to their  limits. you still over here picking cherry picking the same games that many don't even look better then cross gen games.

If graphics is such a priority to a wide part of the market, surely people would want software that showcases next-gen graphics and shows off their hardware. The fact people are content to keep playing last gen games says a lot. People are good even with last generation graphics even for "big ticket 3rd party releases" almost 5 years into a successor generation. 

You can hand wave that all you want and make as many excuses for it as you want, but it is a significant difference from previous generations. 

The fact that 200 million pieces of hardware that's are as powerful as ps5 have been sold should tell you graphics and performance are important to  other wise all the games you mentioned that are the biggest sellers can be played on a 2014 weak PC or ps4. you can hand wave all and make as many as many excuses as you want but the data is there.

The graphical show cases don't stand out as much anymore, people are more focused on art style, resolution and framerate and games they wanna play.



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zeldaring said:
Soundwave said:

If graphics is such a priority to a wide part of the market, surely people would want software that showcases next-gen graphics and shows off their hardware. The fact people are content to keep playing last gen games says a lot. People are good even with last generation graphics even for "big ticket 3rd party releases" almost 5 years into a successor generation. 

You can hand wave that all you want and make as many excuses for it as you want, but it is a significant difference from previous generations. 

The fact that 200 million pieces of hardware that's are as powerful as ps5 have been sold should tell you graphics and performance are important to  other wise all the games you mentioned that are the biggest sellers can be played on a 2014 weak PC or ps4. you can hand wave all and make as many as many excuses as you want but the data is there.

The graphical show cases don't stand out anymore people are more focused on art style, resolution and framerate.

It tells me there is more going on here than just "graphics iz my goawd" because we've seen multiple graphics focused games even some with massive IP attached to them, some with massive marketing budgets (hello Starfield), some great critical acclaim and many of these games have underperformed. 

People have new hardware, but they're not buying the games that are expressly made to push the performance of said hardware in numbers anywhere close to what one would expect. 

Even Sony's own Ratchet Rift Apart we can see from their internal leaked memos, it made a profit, but it sounds like it barely eeked one out because they state they will be cutting the budget of Ratchet 4 significantly down from Rift Apart and Sony is putting its development on the back burner. Cutting the budget for a sequel to a successful game isn't something that happens if the game is even a decent hit, if they were happy with the sales here I don't think they'd be cutting the budget of the sequel, that generally happens when a company is not altogether satisfied with the last installment's performance. 

Not every game can have Spider-Man or Harry Potter slapped on the box. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 12 June 2024

Soundwave said:
zeldaring said:

The fact that 200 million pieces of hardware that's are as powerful as ps5 have been sold should tell you graphics and performance are important to  other wise all the games you mentioned that are the biggest sellers can be played on a 2014 weak PC or ps4. you can hand wave all and make as many as many excuses as you want but the data is there.

The graphical show cases don't stand out anymore people are more focused on art style, resolution and framerate.

It tells me there is more going on here than just "graphics iz my goawd" because we've seen multiple graphics focused games even some with massive IP attached to them, some with massive marketing budgets (hello Starfield), some great critical acclaim and many of these games have underperformed. 

People have new hardware, but they're not buying the games that are expressly made to push the performance of said hardware in numbers anywhere close to what one would expect. 

Even Sony's own Ratchet Rift Apart we can see from their internal leaked memos, it made a profit, but it sounds like it barely eeked one out because they state they will be cutting the budget of Ratchet 4 significantly down from Rift Apart and Sony is putting its development on the back burner. Cutting the budget for a sequel to a successful game isn't something that happens if the game is even a decent hit, if they were happy with the sales here I don't think they'd be cutting the budget of the sequel, that generally happens when a company is not altogether satisfied with the last installment's performance. 

Not every game can have Spider-Man or Harry Potter slapped on the box. 

You keep on repeating the same old tired trope. ghosts of tsunami, horizon, last of us 2 and GOW are all games that   pushed graphics and all did great and they did not have spiderman or harry potter attached to the box.

And you're wrong and don't understand how hardware is being pushed if you are playing in the highest setting and high framerate they are pushing their hardware it's as simple as that. sony games look stunning on PC and look better then all the games you mentioned accept avatar and alan wake 2. example elden ring needs powerful hardware just get 60fps and ps5 level graphics so the hardware is being maxed out in many games



In the US, the top 20 best selling 2023 games included:

Starfield
Street Fighter 6
Resident Evil 4
Spiderman 2
Final Fantasy 16
Elden Ring
Jedi Survivor
Hogwarts Legacy

So far in 2024 top US selling games include Dragon's Dogma 2, Tekken 8 and Rebirth.  

Edit

And Alan Wake 2 needs to stop being the focus to prove a point because AW2 was never released on Steam and originally was digital only on consoles.  You would think people on a sales forum would offer up nuanced discussions instead of parroting "butt teH ALaN WaKE!!."

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 12 June 2024

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Switch OLED

Chrkeller said:

In the US, the top 20 best selling 2023 games included:

Starfield
Street Fighter 6
Resident Evil 4
Spiderman 2
Final Fantasy 16
Elden Ring
Jedi Survivor
Hogwarts Legacy

Starfield underperformed, I don't think there is any doubt about that, it is not a hit in the way other Bethesda games are and it failed to boost XBox hardware. Wasn't even in the top 10 in the year for sales. That's a big disappointment for a game that hyped with a $400 million budget. Its Steam numbers was not good either. Skyrim, which is a what? 14 year old game has more Steam players than Starfield does. 

Final Fantasy 16 by Square-Enix's own admission disappointed sales wise overall. FF7 Rebirth did even worse. 

A lot of sales for Hogwarts Legacy in 2023 came from the downgraded Switch, PS4 versions that give the game a significant second/third wind on the market. Hogwarts is for example still one of the monthly top sellers on Switch right now, it's not on the PS5 top 10, so the worst looking version of this game is pushing a lot of the legs. 

Spiderman 2 is the one next-gen game that's actually lived up the sales expectations, how many Spider-Man or Star Wars IPs are available for developers to piggy back off of? Jedi Survivor even with the massive Star Wars IP saw a 35% drop from its predecessor, which is probably why they're running to port it to the PS4/XB1 now. 



Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

In the US, the top 20 best selling 2023 games included:

Starfield
Street Fighter 6
Resident Evil 4
Spiderman 2
Final Fantasy 16
Elden Ring
Jedi Survivor
Hogwarts Legacy

Starfield underperformed, I don't think there is any doubt about that, it is not a hit in the way other Bethesda games are and it failed to boost XBox hardware. Wasn't even in the top 10 in the year for sales. That's a big disappointment for a game that hyped with a $400 million budget. Its Steam numbers was not good either. 

Final Fantasy 16 by Square-Enix's own admission disappointed sales wise overall. 

A lot of sales for Hogwarts Legacy in 2023 came from the downgraded Switch, PS4 versions that give the game a significant second/third wind on the market. Hogwarts is for example still one of the monthly top sellers on Switch right now, it's not on the PS5 top 10, so the worst looking version of this game is pushing a lot of the legs. 

Spiderman 2 is the one next-gen game that's actually lived up the sales expectations, how many Spider-Man or Star Wars IPs are available for developers to piggy back off of? 

Starfield and FF16 were top 20 best selling games in the US.  

And if you ever wanted to be honest, Starfield wasn't a great game and was poorly optimized for PC.  FF16 hasn't been launched anywhere outside ps5. 

DESPITE all that, both are still top 20 in the US last year.  

Facts are facts son.  



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED