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Forums - Sales Discussion - FF7 Rebirth has reportedly sold half what Remake did in the same timeframe

MH Wilds again is probably the template for most/all "big" Japanese 3rd party games going forward ... made so it can run on a Switch 2, and then they'll just crank the resolution to whatever on the PS5 which will max that out.

Square-Enix can and probably will do the same exact thing with Final Fantasy as a series going forward.

I mean it's not even like they have a choice, what's even the alternative? If they drive the graphics fidelity up to compete with $200-$300+ million dollar games, they're just spending more to likely sell the same or worse disappointing numbers. If more people were going to buy their games due to better graphics it should have already happened with Forspoken, FF16, FF7 Rebirth, etc. etc. Three expensive swings at the bat is more than enough to learn the lesson that it ain't working.

You can't increase the budget of your games while your games are selling less. That makes no sense. It's like some one getting laid off from their job deciding they need to spend more on luxury items and vacations. The new president there has no real choice here but to go a different path. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 23 May 2024

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Soundwave said:

MH Wilds again is probably the template for most/all "big" Japanese 3rd party games going forward ... made so it can run on a Switch 2, and then they'll just crank the resolution to whatever on the PS5 which will max that out.

Square-Enix can and probably will do the same exact thing with Final Fantasy as a series going forward.

I mean it's not even like they have a choice, what's even the alternative? If they drive the graphics fidelity up to compete with $200-$300+ million dollar games, they're just spending more to likely sell the same or worse disappointing numbers. If more people were going to buy their games due to better graphics it should have already happened with Forspoken, FF16, FF7 Rebirth, etc. etc. Three expensive swings at the bat is more than enough to learn the lesson that it ain't working.

You can't increase the budget of your games while your games are selling less. That makes no sense. It's like some one getting laid off from their job deciding they need to spend more on luxury items and vacations. The new president there has no real choice here but to go a different path. 

Pretty much, with a few additional setting changes.  Broadly my view is:

S2: 720p/30 fps + low settings

ps5: 1440p/30 fps or 1080p/60 fps + mixed settings

PC: 1440p/120fps or 4k/60 fps + ultra settings

Pretty straight forward in my mind.  People should buy what fits their preferences.  It really think it is that simple.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 23 May 2024

720p native on a small screen I still think is waste of resources. You have DLSS, use it. 720p should be for docked mode. Even 1080p native I think is a waste of time unless you have a game that is extremely easy game for the system to run.

FF7 Rebirth is 4K/30 on the PS5 ... Square-Enix can just cap it there and make future games (FF17, FF7 Remake Part III, Kingdom Hearts 4) from that which will scale fine to Switch 2.


They can't realistically think that going *higher* in graphics is feasible at this point ... for what? You're not getting any extra sales that way if 16/7 Rebirth/Forspoken already didn't give you any growth (but decline actually). You're not going to match GTAVI unless you are willing to go into probably $400+ million spend ... that's ridiculous. That whole path way has no future for Square-Enix, frankly for no Japanese 3rd party really.

Even if you can build the FF series back from where it is now (looks like FF16 and 7Remake are struggling to get to 5 mill) to a healthier say 8 million with Switch 2 + PC + XBox, like I'm sorry but 8 mill isn't going to support $300 million dollar+ budgets (before any marketing is factored to boot). 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 23 May 2024

Soundwave said:

720p native on a small screen I still think is waste of resources. You have DLSS, use it. 720p should be for docked mode. Even 1080p native I think is a waste of time unless you have a game that is extremely easy for the system to run.

FF7 Rebirth is 4K/30 on the PS5 ... Square-Enix can just cap it there and make future games (FF17, FF7 Remake Part III, Kingdom Hearts 4) from that which will scale fine to Switch 2.


They can't realistically think that going *higher* in graphics is feasible at this point ... for what? You're not getting any extra sales that way if 16/7 Rebirth/Forspoken already didn't give you any growth (but decline actually). You're not going to match GTAVI unless you are willing to go into probably $400+ million spend ... that's ridiculous. That whole path way has no future for Square-Enix, frankly for no Japanese 3rd party really.

Even if you can build the FF series back from where it is now (looks like FF16 and 7Remake are struggling to get to 5 mill) to a healthier say 8 million with Switch 2 + PC + XBox, like I'm sorry but 8 mill isn't going to support $300 million dollar+ budgets (before any marketing is factored to boot). 

We will have to simply agree to disagree.  Graphics are not going to be capped.  It just isn't how gaming works.  RE9 will be the best looking RE to date.  FF17 will be the best looking FF game to date, etc, etc, etc.  Graphics are not going to stop.  



Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

720p native on a small screen I still think is waste of resources. You have DLSS, use it. 720p should be for docked mode. Even 1080p native I think is a waste of time unless you have a game that is extremely easy for the system to run.

FF7 Rebirth is 4K/30 on the PS5 ... Square-Enix can just cap it there and make future games (FF17, FF7 Remake Part III, Kingdom Hearts 4) from that which will scale fine to Switch 2.


They can't realistically think that going *higher* in graphics is feasible at this point ... for what? You're not getting any extra sales that way if 16/7 Rebirth/Forspoken already didn't give you any growth (but decline actually). You're not going to match GTAVI unless you are willing to go into probably $400+ million spend ... that's ridiculous. That whole path way has no future for Square-Enix, frankly for no Japanese 3rd party really.

Even if you can build the FF series back from where it is now (looks like FF16 and 7Remake are struggling to get to 5 mill) to a healthier say 8 million with Switch 2 + PC + XBox, like I'm sorry but 8 mill isn't going to support $300 million dollar+ budgets (before any marketing is factored to boot). 

We will have to simply agree to disagree.  Graphics are not going to be capped.  It just isn't how gaming works.  RE9 will be the best looking RE to date.  FF17 will be the best looking FF game to date, etc, etc, etc.  Graphics are not going to stop.  

The "cap" is fairly evident already, MH6 looks barely better than World. Street Fighter VI doesn't look a full generation better than V. They can make games look "better" by making smarter use of art style, but huge generational leaps forward for franchises that are not even selling 10 million copies? Ain't happening. Games don't magically make themselves and won't for a quite a long time. 

They can continue to use the FF7 Rebirth engine and make other games from that. 

But I doubt you are going to see anything from Square-Enix that is a massive leap beyond that any time soon. They don't have the sales to support a $300+ million dollar budget. 

Those types of "top end" visual showcase games are going to become the domain of a small handful of mostly Western studios that have massive funding behind them and probably things like a Marvel or Harry Potter license IP attached to them. For Square-Enix, you can't actually be going *backwards* in sales and think you are going forwards in your budget spend, not realistic at all. 



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Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

We will have to simply agree to disagree.  Graphics are not going to be capped.  It just isn't how gaming works.  RE9 will be the best looking RE to date.  FF17 will be the best looking FF game to date, etc, etc, etc.  Graphics are not going to stop.  

The "cap" is fairly evident already, MH6 looks barely better than World. Street Fighter VI doesn't look a full generation better than V. They can make games look "better" by making smarter use of art style, but huge generational leaps forward for franchises that are not even selling 10 million copies? Ain't happening. Games don't magically make themselves and won't for a quite a long time. 

They can continue to use the FF7 Rebirth engine and make other games from that. 

But I doubt you are going to see anything from Square-Enix that is a massive leap beyond that any time soon. They don't have the sales to support a $300+ million dollar budget. 

Those types of "top end" visual showcase games are going to become the domain of a small handful of mostly Western studios that have massive funding behind them and probably things like a Marvel or Harry Potter license IP attached to them. For Square-Enix, you can't actually be going *backwards* in sales and think you are going forwards in your budget spend, not realistic at all. 

Agree to disagree.  AI tools are coming, just look at NVIDIA stock.  Development costs will drop and graphics will continue.  PC is already ahead of the game and demonstrates this.



Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

The "cap" is fairly evident already, MH6 looks barely better than World. Street Fighter VI doesn't look a full generation better than V. They can make games look "better" by making smarter use of art style, but huge generational leaps forward for franchises that are not even selling 10 million copies? Ain't happening. Games don't magically make themselves and won't for a quite a long time. 

They can continue to use the FF7 Rebirth engine and make other games from that. 

But I doubt you are going to see anything from Square-Enix that is a massive leap beyond that any time soon. They don't have the sales to support a $300+ million dollar budget. 

Those types of "top end" visual showcase games are going to become the domain of a small handful of mostly Western studios that have massive funding behind them and probably things like a Marvel or Harry Potter license IP attached to them. For Square-Enix, you can't actually be going *backwards* in sales and think you are going forwards in your budget spend, not realistic at all. 

Agree to disagree.  AI tools are coming, just look at NVIDIA stock.  Development costs will drop and graphics will continue.  PC is already ahead of the game and demonstrates this.

Really? Show me one major game being developed primarily by AI and not people (design, not just using some art assets). Show me one major game that even plans to do this in the next 5 years. Show me one game that utilizes a 4090 outside of just cranking resolution. All "next gen" games are still playable on a 2050 GPU. This hardware is largely not being pushed at all. 

Development costs are not dropping. You're delusional if you think that is what's happening now. If they were maybe you ought to send Sony/Insomniac and all these other studios the memo, because apparently that isn't the reality of what's going on. 

Nvidia stock is high not because of AI for game development (lol) it's because of stupid basic photos it can generate and even that they are very crude still and the AI cannot yet understand very simple specific commands. People are investing because they think maybe in 10 years this might be the next internet. It is still years, probably even decades away from being able to be used in a way where you can just tell it "make me a Mario game with XYZ and I want the texture in this level to like like this, and Mario to have these physics now I want this level to have this, this, and this" etc. etc. etc. etc. 

If it was there, why the fuck would I even wait for game developers, I could just tell the AI to make me the game I want. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 23 May 2024

Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

Agree to disagree.  AI tools are coming, just look at NVIDIA stock.  Development costs will drop and graphics will continue.  PC is already ahead of the game and demonstrates this.

Really? Show me one major game being developed by AI and not people. Show me one major game that even plans to do this in the next 5 years. Show me one game that utilizes a 4090 outside of just cranking resolution. All "next gen" games are still playable on a 2050 GPU. 

Development costs are not dropping. You're delusional if you think that is what's happening now. If they were maybe you ought to send Sony/Insomniac and all these other studios the memo, because apparently that isn't the reality of what's going on. 

Nvidia stock is high not because of AI for game development (lol) it's because of stupid basic photos it can generate and even that they are very crude still and the AI cannot yet understand specific commands. People are investing because they think maybe in 10 years this might be the next internet. It is still years, probably even decades away from being able to be used in a way where you can just tell it "make me a Mario game with XYZ and I want the texture in this level to like like this, and Mario to have these physics" etc. etc. etc. etc. 

DLSS is AI....  so there are a bunch of examples.  

Necessity is the mother of invention.  

There is a necessity to reduce development costs, thus invention is coming.

This is how all markets work.  Just look at electric cars, doing things people didn't think were possible 10 years ago.  



Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

Really? Show me one major game being developed by AI and not people. Show me one major game that even plans to do this in the next 5 years. Show me one game that utilizes a 4090 outside of just cranking resolution. All "next gen" games are still playable on a 2050 GPU. 

Development costs are not dropping. You're delusional if you think that is what's happening now. If they were maybe you ought to send Sony/Insomniac and all these other studios the memo, because apparently that isn't the reality of what's going on. 

Nvidia stock is high not because of AI for game development (lol) it's because of stupid basic photos it can generate and even that they are very crude still and the AI cannot yet understand specific commands. People are investing because they think maybe in 10 years this might be the next internet. It is still years, probably even decades away from being able to be used in a way where you can just tell it "make me a Mario game with XYZ and I want the texture in this level to like like this, and Mario to have these physics" etc. etc. etc. etc. 

DLSS is AI....  so there are a bunch of examples.  

Necessity is the mother of invention.  

There is a necessity to reduce development costs, thus invention is coming.

This is how all markets work.  Just look at electric cars, doing things people didn't think were possible 10 years ago.  

DLSS doesn't change development cost, it's not an AI "developing something". 

If AI can eventually make games, why the fuck would I ever even bother waiting for a developer to make me a game (let alone pay them $70)? I'd just tell the AI to build me the game specifically that I want. It is probably decades away from that, but if it can actually develop games (which would actually reduce cost) that's a zero sum game for the video game industry because people will just start asking the AI to make them games and bypass developers entirely.

AI is not going to make Square-Enix's troubles go away any time soon either way. They can't spend that much more on their games than they are now. FF7 Rebirth is already "epic" enough, they can cap it there and make games much more smartly going forward for the next decade using that same base. 



Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

DLSS is AI....  so there are a bunch of examples.  

Necessity is the mother of invention.  

There is a necessity to reduce development costs, thus invention is coming.

This is how all markets work.  Just look at electric cars, doing things people didn't think were possible 10 years ago.  

DLSS doesn't change development cost, it's not an AI "developing something". 

If AI can eventually make games, why the fuck would I ever even bother waiting for a developer to make me a game (let alone pay them $70)? I'd just tell the AI to build me the game specifically that I want. It is probably decades away from that, but if it can actually develop games (which would actually reduce cost) that's a zero sum game for the video game industry because people will just start asking the AI to make them games and bypass developers entirely.

Ray Tracing is AI.  So is DLSS.  The whole point is the gpu handles lighting and resolution optimization, not people.

You seem to have a problem with facts.  But I'll leave you to it.  Paper Mario is calling.