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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

Chrkeller said:
sundin13 said:

Killer analogy.

The boat has a leak. We can either bail the water to keep it afloat until we get to shore or we can sink. Saying "just patch it" isn't helping anyone, because Congress (not sure who they are in this analogy, but oh well, no analogy is perfect) isn't patching anything anytime soon and besides, even if they do patch it, the boat is still full of water. 

Sometimes, the "strategic" option isn't available (for one reason or another), so we can only do what we can with what we have. The Biden Administration is doing what it can with what it has to keep the people afloat until Congress gets its act together (which may take some time). 

I support keeping the boat floating, not refusing to bail the water because reasons.

Enjoy the ocean floor.  I hear it is lovely.   ðŸ˜€ 

I've said my peace.  I don't support debt forgiveness.  I'm entitled to my opinion.

Edit

Biggerboat1 I think it 100% spot on.  Lots of middle aisle people feel that way.  A few years ago I was a hardcore  Democrat, not so much anymore.  Largely because Democrat's force assimilation, you can't even think slightly out of party lines...  see this thread for example.  I've gotten next to no respect despite valid points and agreeing on most other topics.  Democrats are all or nothing these days.  A shame to see free thought be discouraged.

  

I think you’re getting overly sensitive, who is discouraging free thought or saying you aren't entitled to your opinion? You’re acting like we are trying to get you banned. This is a forum, it survives by having discussion and naturally disagreements create more discussion than agreements.

Free thought and opinions go both ways, you are allowed to share your views and others are allowed to share their opposing views and explain why they think you are wrong. I’ve noticed when people talk about free speech being repressed, what they actually mean is “I want to share my views and I don’t want anybody to disagree or point out any flaws!”



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

Enjoy the ocean floor.  I hear it is lovely.   ðŸ˜€ 

I've said my peace.  I don't support debt forgiveness.  I'm entitled to my opinion.

Edit

Biggerboat1 I think it 100% spot on.  Lots of middle aisle people feel that way.  A few years ago I was a hardcore  Democrat, not so much anymore.  Largely because Democrat's force assimilation, you can't even think slightly out of party lines...  see this thread for example.  I've gotten next to no respect despite valid points and agreeing on most other topics.  Democrats are all or nothing these days.  A shame to see free thought be discouraged.

  

I think you’re getting overly sensitive, who is discouraging free thought or saying you aren't entitled to your opinion? You’re acting like we are trying to get you banned. This is a forum, it survives by having discussion and naturally disagreements create more discussion than agreements.

Free thought and opinions go both ways, you are allowed to share your views and others are allowed to share their opposing views and explain why they think you are wrong. I’ve noticed when people talk about free speech being repressed, what they actually mean is “I want to share my views and I don’t want anybody to disagree or point out any flaws!”

Being called a "hypocrite" and being told I have a "fuck you" attitude isn't exactly encouraging open dialogue. 

Either way, doesn't change the larger point that people in the middle feel a bit forced towards the right because if someone doesn't 100% with the pre-assigned talking points they are viewed as a bad person.  



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Chrkeller said:

Enjoy the ocean floor.  I hear it is lovely.   ðŸ˜€ 

I've said my peace.  I don't support debt forgiveness.  I'm entitled to my opinion.

In the analogy, you're the one pushing us down to the ocean floor. 

Just like you're entitled to your opinion, we're entitled to ours, and we're allowed to discuss it. That's what forums like these are for. 

If you don't want to be part of the discussion anymore, you don't have to be. We're not forcing you to come back against your will. 

Chrkeller said:

Biggerboat1 I think it 100% spot on.  Lots of middle aisle people feel that way.  A few years ago I was a hardcore  Democrat, not so much anymore.  Largely because Democrat's force assimilation, you can't even think slightly out of party lines...  see this thread for example. 

I personally don't view myself as a democrat, other than they're the only alternative to Republicanism.

I'm not a mainstream Democrat in any way, shape or form. 

Chrkeller said:

I've gotten next to no respect despite valid points and agreeing on most other topics.  Democrats are all or nothing these days.  A shame to see free thought be discouraged.

Everyone thinks of their own views as being generally valid, that doesn't mean that they all are. A lot of people think all of Trump's points are valid, I think you would disagree with that. 

The issue isn't "free thought". Everyone has free thought, but that doesn't mean all the ideas are good. Some of us like discussing why we feel ideas are not productive or why they're outright bad.

If I've been disrespectful to you, I apologize. 

Personally I'm tired. I'm tired of people letting the world continue to get worse because "freedom", "individual responsibility". 



Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

I think you’re getting overly sensitive, who is discouraging free thought or saying you aren't entitled to your opinion? You’re acting like we are trying to get you banned. This is a forum, it survives by having discussion and naturally disagreements create more discussion than agreements.

Free thought and opinions go both ways, you are allowed to share your views and others are allowed to share their opposing views and explain why they think you are wrong. I’ve noticed when people talk about free speech being repressed, what they actually mean is “I want to share my views and I don’t want anybody to disagree or point out any flaws!”

Being called a "hypocrite" and being told I have a "fuck you" attitude isn't exactly encouraging open dialogue. 

Either way, doesn't change the larger point that people in the middle feel a bit forced towards the right because if someone doesn't 100% with the pre-assigned talking points they are viewed as a bad person.  

I’m pretty sure neither of those things are any meaner or any more hostile than the things you have said to Soundwave while arguing about video game graphics, something that is far less important in the grand scheme of things.

If someone feels they are being pushed to the right, the side that wants to take away reproduction rights, LGBT rights, voting rights, labor rights, pretends racism doesn’t exist, denies science & climate change, ignores gun violence, views immigrants as lesser humans, attempts to erase history, and wants to defund education, healthcare, social security and other safety net programs, all because leftists sometimes say mean things online then idk what to tell you, maybe that person was looking for an excuse to move to the right or maybe they are a snowflake who can’t handle any form of criticism.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

Being called a "hypocrite" and being told I have a "fuck you" attitude isn't exactly encouraging open dialogue. 

Either way, doesn't change the larger point that people in the middle feel a bit forced towards the right because if someone doesn't 100% with the pre-assigned talking points they are viewed as a bad person.  

I’m pretty sure neither of those things are any meaner or any more hostile than the things you have said to Soundwave while arguing about video game graphics, something that is far less important in the grand scheme of things.

If someone feels they are being pushed to the right, the side that wants to take away reproduction rights, LGBT rights, voting rights, labor rights, pretends racism doesn’t exist, denies science & climate change, ignores gun violence, views immigrants as lesser humans, attempts to erase history, and wants to defund education, healthcare, social security and other safety net programs, all because leftists sometimes say mean things online then idk what to tell you, maybe that person was looking for an excuse to move to the right or maybe they are a snowflake who can’t handle any form of criticism.

Bit of a straw-man don't you think and perhaps an example of what he was talking about.  Taking all those issues and implying the other side's stance on them is a school yard reaction ....



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zorg1000 said:
Biggerboat1 said:

You can apply that principle to a whole host of situations people find themselves in. Should 17/18/19 YOs be forgiven for all the financial mistakes they've made? All debt forgiven across the board? All let out of prison for crimes they've committed? Should they be compensated for choosing the wrong careers, bad purchases, bad investments? 

The human brain doesn't fully mature until it's mid-twenties, so should the above be extended to those individuals too?

Everybody will have a different opinion on these & other similar scenarios, some will say yes to all, some no, but the vast majority will fall somewhere in-between, to varying degrees.

My main point is that I find it an ever-more common position for people on the left (where I'd broadly place my views incidentally) to say that whoever sits to the right of their particular views is by definition a bad person/selfish/greedy etc. This mentality will only derail the conversation into ad homs & honestly, who has ever changed their outlook & been won over by being told that effectively, they're a piece of shit? Shaming isn't gonna win hearts & minds.

This approach is also counterproductive to the person engaging in it as there will almost always be someone with positions to the left of theirs, who can then turn the tables & define them as a POS.

I fear that more and more people are being pushed to the right, when in actuality their positions start off in a more moderate place, but they're just tired of being talked down to and scolded.

Btw, I don't have an axe to grind with you here, I lurk more than I post and I find your overall contribution to the community a positive one.

These seem like random gotchas but I’ll reply.


What other major purchases do 17-19 year olds make? Things like vehicles and housing are the other common major life purchases people get loans for where the cost can rival that of college tuition but you need proof of income and credit history to prove you can pay them back. Also we are talking about federal loans so things personal loans, credit cards and car loans don’t really apply to the discussion. When it comes to public transportation and affordable housing, I do fully support the government significantly expanding these areas. I don’t think the government really has the authority to forgive private debt but I believe they should do things that help bring down the cost of living for all Americans so they can better repay these debts or not get into debt in the first place.

As for crimes, it depends on what the specific crime was but I don’t think young people (or people of any age for that matter) doing dumb things should ruin their entire lives. Of course, people should have to serve out their punishment whether that’s a fine, community service or jail time but in general I feel the government should do more to help rehabilitate and integrate former criminals back into society. Even after serving out their sentence, many face discrimination when it comes to employment, housing and other services which leads them back to a life of crime.

I don’t think it matters what category you bring up, it can be healthcare, housing, infrastructure, education, child care, labor rights, public safety, equality, criminal justice, environment/climate, etc. my answer will probably be that the government could & should have a more active role.

I don't see how anything I wrote can be interpreted as a gotcha...

I'm not looking to get into the weeds of any of the particulars referenced, their inclusion was simply to illustrate how every topic will be subject to a spectrum of opinion & it can't be a simple case of the most left opinion = the most correct & anybody to the right of anybody else is by definition more selfish/greedy/<insert pejorative here>...

my answer will probably be that the government could & should have a more active role.

How much more though? Does someone who thinks there should be more than you do simply mean they're less selfish?

Bottom line is that if you're disagreeing with someone who is seemingly participating in dialogue in good faith then it's a poor show to hurl insults at them & is going to accomplish precisely nothing in terms of making them reconsider their position.



The_Yoda said:
zorg1000 said:

I’m pretty sure neither of those things are any meaner or any more hostile than the things you have said to Soundwave while arguing about video game graphics, something that is far less important in the grand scheme of things.

If someone feels they are being pushed to the right, the side that wants to take away reproduction rights, LGBT rights, voting rights, labor rights, pretends racism doesn’t exist, denies science & climate change, ignores gun violence, views immigrants as lesser humans, attempts to erase history, and wants to defund education, healthcare, social security and other safety net programs, all because leftists sometimes say mean things online then idk what to tell you, maybe that person was looking for an excuse to move to the right or maybe they are a snowflake who can’t handle any form of criticism.

Bit of a straw-man don't you think and perhaps an example of what he was talking about.  Taking all those issues and implying the other side's stance on them is a school yard reaction ....

How is it a strawman? That’s literally what he’s saying, he feels pushed to the right because we disagreed on a specific issue and I said a few mean things.

Obviously not every single conservative/Republican agrees 100% with all of those issues but it’s predominantly people on the right who have those stances and is where the Republican Party as a whole is trending.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
The_Yoda said:

Bit of a straw-man don't you think and perhaps an example of what he was talking about.  Taking all those issues and implying the other side's stance on them is a school yard reaction ....

How is it a strawman? That’s literally what he’s saying, he feels pushed to the right because we disagreed on a specific issue and I said a few mean things.

Obviously not every single conservative/Republican agrees 100% with all of those issues but it’s predominantly people on the right who have those stances and is where the Republican Party as a whole is trending.

If that was targeted directly at him then you are right it wasn't a straw-man.  Your use of "If someone", "maybe that person" seemed broad, encompassing those originally on the right and those pushed that way.  The thought that the harsh (sometimes misused) words used by the left were the only reason that the right and left didn't see eye to eye on those issues seemed the straw-man to me.



the-pi-guy said:
Biggerboat1 said:

My main point is that I find it an ever-more common position for people on the left (where I'd broadly place my views incidentally) to say that whoever sits to the right of their particular views is by definition a bad person/selfish/greedy etc. This mentality will only derail the conversation into ad homs & honestly, who has ever changed their outlook & been won over by being told that effectively, they're a piece of shit? Shaming isn't gonna win hearts & minds.

This approach is also counterproductive to the person engaging in it as there will almost always be someone with positions to the left of theirs, who can then turn the tables & define them as a POS.

I fear that more and more people are being pushed to the right, when in actuality their positions start off in a more moderate place, but they're just tired of being talked down to and scolded.

This is not something that is exclusive to the left.

Right wingers have on multiple occasions basically made it illegal to be left wing. 

Most people think of themselves as being morally upright, and frequently think that people who disagree with them must be immoral. 

Pro-choice people are baby killers, don't you know? 

They're communists/socialists/liberals coming for your guns, your freedom, your knives, your religion, your cars, etc.

Or recently "no one wants to work anymore"

Maybe young people today are left wing, because right wingers villainize them?

I don't have time to respond to every point unfortunately, the dishes aren't going to do themselves haha, but re. the above, I wanted to expand.

Of course elements of the right regularly demonize the left and caricatures it's positions relentlessly. But the left seems to be a lot more prone to eating it's own. There's an appetite to shame & scold others on the left, who's positions fall even marginally to the right of theirs.

As an example, and I know this is a can of worms, but it's the best example I can think of. I'd quite like to discuss what's going on with the trans debate. I have no issue with using any individual's preferred pronouns & genuinely want trans people to feel accepted, valued & included. However I do have some reservations around legal definitions and rights that I view as potentially infringing on those of biological women...

My position isn't fixed and I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I'd say that my stance overall sits on the general left.

However I'm very cautious in regards to with whom & where I bring this topic up, as it seems to be the case that if you're not 110% on board with every aspect of the trans argument that you can expect to be hit with being 'anti-trans', or if I was a female, a 'terf'.

I always associated the left with empathy, compassion & respect, but more and more I feel that these values are extended to everyone except those who dare to have a divergence of opinion...



Biggerboat1 said:
the-pi-guy said:

This is not something that is exclusive to the left.

Right wingers have on multiple occasions basically made it illegal to be left wing. 

Most people think of themselves as being morally upright, and frequently think that people who disagree with them must be immoral. 

Pro-choice people are baby killers, don't you know? 

They're communists/socialists/liberals coming for your guns, your freedom, your knives, your religion, your cars, etc.

Or recently "no one wants to work anymore"

Maybe young people today are left wing, because right wingers villainize them?

I don't have time to respond to every point unfortunately, the dishes aren't going to do themselves haha, but re. the above, I wanted to expand.

Of course elements of the right regularly demonize the left and caricatures it's positions relentlessly. But the left seems to be a lot more prone to eating it's own. There's an appetite to shame & scold others on the left, who's positions fall even marginally to the right of theirs.

As an example, and I know this is a can of worms, but it's the best example I can think of. I'd quite like to discuss what's going on with the trans debate. I have no issue with using any individual's preferred pronouns & genuinely want trans people to feel accepted, valued & included. However I do have some reservations around legal definitions and rights that I view as potentially infringing on those of biological women...

My position isn't fixed and I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I'd say that my stance overall sits on the general left.

However I'm very cautious in regards to with whom & where I bring this topic up, as it seems to be the case that if you're not 110% on board with every aspect of the trans argument that you can expect to be hit with being 'anti-trans', or if I was a female, a 'terf'.

I always associated the left with empathy, compassion & respect, but more and more I feel that these values are extended to everyone except those who dare to have a divergence of opinion...

This exactly.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 15 April 2024

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