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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Unity is going to charge for installations of games using their engine

EpicRandy said:

Unity finally made a new plan public:

To our community:

I’m Marc Whitten, and I lead Unity Create which includes the Unity engine and editor teams.

I want to start with this: I am sorry. 

We should have spoken with more of you and we should have incorporated more of your feedback before announcing our new Runtime Fee policy. Our goal with this policy is to ensure we can continue to support you today and tomorrow, and keep deeply investing in our game engine.

You are what makes Unity great, and we know we need to listen, and work hard to earn your trust. We have heard your concerns, and we are making changes in the policy we announced to address them.

Our Unity Personal plan will remain free and there will be no Runtime Fee for games built on Unity Personal. We will be increasing the cap from $100,000 to $200,000 and we will remove the requirement to use the Made with Unity splash screen.

No game with less than $1 million in trailing 12-month revenue will be subject to the fee.

For those creators on Unity Pro and Unity Enterprise, we are also making changes based on your feedback.

The Runtime Fee policy will only apply beginning with the next LTS version of Unity shipping in 2024 and beyond. Your games that are currently shipped and the projects you are currently working on will not be included – unless you choose to upgrade them to this new version of Unity.

We will make sure that you can stay on the terms applicable for the version of Unity editor you are using – as long as you keep using that version.

For games that are subject to the runtime fee, we are giving you a choice of either a 2.5% revenue share or the calculated amount based on the number of new people engaging with your game each month. Both of these numbers are self-reported from data you already have available. You will always be billed the lesser amount.

We want to continue to build the best engine for creators. We truly love this industry and you are the reason why.

I’d like to invite you to join me for a live fireside chat hosted by Jason Weimann today at 4:00 pm ET/1:00 pm PT, where I will do my best to answer your questions. In the meantime, here are some more details.*

Thank you for caring as deeply as you do, and thank you for giving us hard feedback.

Marc Whitten

So the fee per install garbage and all related issues are obviously gone, and it's now revenue share or some fee per new unique player count.

They will host an AMA apparently, I hope someone asks something akin to "Was it so hard to come up with something with basic logic?".

Will the trust come back, will unity be left with an associated stigma, time will tell, still want Riccitiello to be shown the door though.

This is only going to stop the bleeding in the short run, mostly for companies that have their Unity game halfway done. Once their projects are done, noone is going to trust Unity to not pull this stunt again. They are going to need a lot of time (or another company fucking up in equal measure) to recover.



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Darwinianevolution said:
EpicRandy said:

[...]

This is only going to stop the bleeding in the short run, mostly for companies that have their Unity game halfway done. Once their projects are done, noone is going to trust Unity to not pull this stunt again. They are going to need a lot of time (or another company fucking up in equal measure) to recover.

This is also what I think will happen. Going forward Unity will be viewed as a certain liability, the existing team will be weighing the risk of pursuing development with Unity vs. the complexity and investment it would incur to switch engines.

It will be very hard next 12-24 months for Unity as: 

  • They already operate at a loss.
  • New teams will have a harder time choosing Unity vs. alternative because of the stigma left. (This might be mitigated by an extension of benefits in the newly announced package though)
  • Some existing teams will still go forward with replacing Unity as they announced.
  • The newly added revenue is now pushed back from January 1 to sometime later as the new major update rolls out.
  • They raised the awareness of their main competitor big time especially Godot which is 100% free and open source and can use C#.

However in the end it is very hard to envision Unity half-ass a new fee going forward, this thought might make it somewhat easier for certain teams to allow themselves to trust Unity one lat time. Riccitiello leaving will certainly be for the best in all scenarios.

 



Verter said:

Sorry about the huge post. That was one reason why I stopped posting in VGChartz: I usually ended up writing (a lot) more than I initially wanted, and so I spent more time here than I wanted.

"Those are supposed to be the investments you make so that your tools actually work. Without it, Unity simply has no value and it is actually already monetized by the value it procures to unity."

But where do those investments come from? That was my point: Oracle and Microsoft can afford to offer JRE and .NET (respectively) for free precisely because they have other products that aren't free. Also, Unity isn't exactly the same kind of product than JRE or .NET, so I don't think it's a 1:1 comparison (Unreal Engine is). In any case, Unity Technologies doesn't have other products or services that aren't linked to Unity, so it has to make money from it if it wants to keep existing. The reality is that the value that the company gets from Unity becomes totally useless if Unity doesn't generate enough profit to be sustainable and remain competitive both on the short and long terms.

And let's not forget that Unity is the David of the professional game engines, with Unreal being Goliath. Epic Games is the one company that could easily afford to offer Unreal Engine entirely for free, with no taxes whatsoever, and yet they still decide to charge a fee right from the first dollar you make using its engine. On the other hand, Unity Technologies, which doesn't have anything else to hold onto if Unity fails, still give you 1,000,000$ for free. And as you said, Unity is more stable now (and has more and better features and services), so it's clear that the money they've being making so far has being well spent (at least partially).

"The Twitter feed I linked is to the contrary mostly constituted of serious actors that are actually paying license and revenue to Unity. And even for the hobbyist the move is still crappy if they ever had any hopes of maybe..."

Inside the spoiler tag, there's a list with the last 70 developers (no cherrypicking) mentioned by that Twitter account (with 632 posts at the moment of searching). Among them there are only 4 midsized companies and 8 other devs that seem more or less serious. The 58 remaining are either starting, or hobbyists, or small unsuccesful or not-too-succesful "companies" (sometimes they are actually constituted as such, sometimes they're just a bunch of friends working together), or just not developers (simply people or small associations supporting them). So your claim about which actors constitute this Twitter account doesn't seem to be true.

Spoiler!
Galareteg: 1 person, 3 games (none of them seems commercial).
Bouncyrock: 19 people, 1 early access game.
Rahulahoop: he's a lawyer, not a game developer.
Falconshield: he's a musician, not a game developer.
Yahya Lazrek (UU Soft): 1 person, 11 games (none of them seems commercial)
SinKillerJ Tachikawa: 1 person, 1 game
Rollthered: 1 person, 0 games.
Elden Pixels: 3 people, 6 games.
Richie de Wit: it's the owner of a small boutique publisher, he doesn't currently develop games.
Supergoodpixel: probably midsized company, a variety of games.
Sidequest Ninja: 1 person, 1 game.
DMG Toronto: 3 people, 0 games. It's a community that support indies, but there are no games shown on their website yet.
Whinsekk Games: 1 person, 4 games (none of them seems commercial).
Team Stargazers: 2 people, 1 game.
GIC: it's a game conference in Poland, not a developer.
Alex Massé & team: 12 people (the original creator has been hiring the other 11 people over time thanks to money from Patreon), 0 games. Still developing their first game (since 2019).
TIGA: it's a UK organization, not a developer.
Capeling: 1 person. I couldn't find any information, I think he's just a random supporter and not a developer.
Interactive Ontario: it's a non-profit association, not a developer.
Squirrel Bytes: 4-5 people, 0 games. Still developing their first game.
Commuter Games: more than 1 person (but only the original creator is credited), 1 game (and another one published).
Sos Sosowski: 1 person, 1 commercial game (and lots of games for jams and the like).
Hungry Trolls: 2 people, 0 games. Still developing their first game.
Happy Star Studios: 1 person, 4 games (none of them seems commercial).
Revolto Software: 6 people, 2 commercial games (and 6 other minor games, including 1 demo and 1 unfinished prototype)
Gustavo Almuna: wage earner.
Mark Rosner: he's an investor, not a developer.
Meierdesigns: he's a 3D artist, not a developer.
Kryptic Kralo: he's a artist and streamer, not a developer.
Noah Rayburn: wage earner.
Mir: he's a digital artist, not a developer (or just very recently starting).
Zany Studio: don't know how many people (looks like one creator and other collaborators), lots of small games for children.
Anton Hand: he's in Rust Ltd., a studio of 4 people and 1 game (plus another one on hold).
Friendly Studios: 1 person and "some friends", 0 games. Still developing their first game.
Hometopia: at least 3 people (probably a bunch more), 0 games (1 about to enter early access). They seem to have background in game development.
Arnie's Workshop: 1 person, 0 games. Still developing his first game.
Starving Fox Studio: 1 person, 4 games (1 of them in early access).
Venom Reaper Productions: 1 person, 0 games. Still developing his first game.
Robot Gentleman: 27 people (and 1 dog), 2 games (and 1 remaster).
Mistgrave: don't know how many people, 0 games. They exist since literally two months ago.
Studio Supernebula: 2 people, 0 games. Still developing their first game.
Burning Sunset: 3 people, 3 games.
Interactive Dreams: don't know how many people, 0 games. Still developing their first game.
Shady Corner and Ten Pennyfingers: don't know how many people (the latter looks like 1 person only), 1 game (and some demos and other stuff).
CyberStudios PTY: don't know how many people, 0 games (after 8 years of development).
AppLovin: software company, but not a gaming one. It seems to me like they're trying to take advantage of the situation to gain customers.
breadothy: 1 person, 0 games. Still developing his/her first game.
neenaw: wage earner, I think.
Re-Logic: midsized studio, 1 game (but quite successful)
Mark Webster: 1 person, 0 games. Still developing his first game.
Pentadact: 1 person, 3 games.
Mad Fellows: 2 people, 2 games.
game: it's a German non-profit organization, not a developer.
Stefaaan: 1 person, 0 commercial games (and 2 jam games).
Alex Darby (Darbotron): 1 person and several collaborators, 11 games. Looks like a serious business.
Zeboyd: 1 person and several collaborators, 5 games.
made in fairyland: don't know how many people (maybe around 4), 0 games. They claim to have supported Unity for a decade, but they're about to publish their first game.
DarkTree Game Studio: 1 person (and "fast-growing"), 1 game (plus 1 demo and 1 prototype)
Ash & Fox: 1 person, 0 games. Still developing his/her first game.
Fluxo games: 8 people, 4 games. It's a small studio, but looks serious.
Joshua Bringle: 1 person, 1 game.
Binary Impact: 11 people, 3 games.
Sungrand Studios: don't know how many people, 4 games.
LuGus: 9 people, many games.
Matrix Reliability: don't know how many people, 1 game. Not entirely focused on the gaming space.
Die of Death Games: 1 person, 2 games.
Pardall Games: 1 person, 0 games. Still developing his first game.
Skymill Studios: between 10 and 20 developers, 0 games. Still developing their first game.
Mechs Studios: 6 people, 1 game
Kevin Ethridge Games: 1 person, 1 game.

And, about the hobbyists part, they will have gained 1,000,000$ (minus 2,000 for the Pro license) before they have to actually pay the fee, so this doesn't affect their hopes in the slightest. And, if there are actually some hobbyists claiming that the fee will crash their hopes (which funnily there are), either they haven't given it much thought (at all) or they are just being overly dramatic in order to make it look like the situation for them is worse than it actually is. I mean, seriously, one million dollars (minus 2,000) before you start paying? And you gain that as a hobbyist? Please, where do I have to sign?

You're right, however, that among the 230,000 stated by Unity there's probably a lot of hobbyists too.

Also, about what is actually representative of the industry or not, there is a huge number of midized and big companies that make casual, hypercasual or casino games for mobile devices, which means that they make the most played games in the biggest segment of the industry, despite being mostly unknown or "invisible" for the majority of people. I could name you dozens of these companies (probably close to 100, because I have them written down) from Spain alone (which is an emerging market), and those are just the ones I know and the ones that had an open offer for a Unity developer job in the last couple of months or so. If on top of that we start counting those that didn't have open jobs lately and from all over the world instead of a single country, we'd probably get thousands of them (perhaps even tens of thousands). And most of them have between 10 and 50 employees, some of them even more, with the bigger ones having thousands.

So even if there are more solo developers and small companies in the world than there are these midsized and big companies, the sheer amount of developers working for them is probably way higher than the developers working for the smaller ones. And these are all serious companies, while in the other group there are many who really aren't professional. So, about which is more representative of the industry, maybe both are, but one group has certainly a lot more economical impact than the other, and that is the group that is less likely to abandon Unity and start using other engines that aren't used in trully professional circuits, like Godot.

"I find it quite natural that customers will push back when they are at the being exploited phase"

Overall, my point was that Unity would not be as negatively affected by this controversy as a lot of people think. Thus, as I said before, the best scenario here is not one in which Unity is severely affected in a negative way, but one in which a different engine (mainly Godot) is positively affected in a sufficient degree. If Godot, for example, starts making its way into the professional space, that's good, because it means more competition. For that to happen, that explosion that you mentioned in the use of Godot should eventually translate into successful games from successful teams of developers, leading them to grow and therefore hire more Godot developers. If that amount of Godot companies is high enough, then this engine could get a few portion of market share in the professional circuits, which is what it is lacking now. And all of that is only possible thanks to people pushing back, so I totally agree with what you said above.

I disagree about to what extent the retroactivity would affect existing developers, however, but that doesn't matter now, because Unity has already released its new fee and it's way better than the previous one (not that that was hard to improve anyway): https://blog.unity.com/news/open-letter-on-runtime-fee

For the investment to sustain the runtime, they come from Unity Engine revenue, it serves no purpose to see them as 2 independent products that must be financed separately when they're both part of the same solutions. The IDE cannot live without bundling the runtime with its compiled product and the runtime cannot live without the IDE producing products that make use of it. that's like a padlock company, the key and the padlock itself are 2 products yet they cannot live without always being bundled together and it serves no purpose to try to monetize 1 differently if you don't make enough to cover the cost and sustain R&D on both just raise the price of the package. What Unity had done before reverting is the equivalent of a padlock company charging retailers for every time their customer installs the padlock on a new door/locker/box/... and basing the occurrence of it on a trust me bro proprietary model.

And let's not forget that Unity is the David of the professional game engines

Can't argue with that, although being David in this context is only good as long as people trust you can be a winner, if you do something that breaks that trust it won't be long before they revert to looking at Goliath for its so obvious and reassuring winners attribute.

I know the situation is more complex and can be looked at from dozens of different angles, but the simple fact is Unity is currently operating at a loss and while adding revenue can help, growth is extremely important. The way Unity implemented the new fee at first severely impeded growth potential and more than likely set them on a downward trend. The newly proposed way is certainly better (it's not even comparable) and would it had been proposed this way at first there would have been 0 backlash, yet now even it can't undo all the damage that was done. As a result, unity will be set back years in their quest for profitability and the next few months will certainly be challenging.

In the end, though, I certainly hope your vision is more accurate, as I do want more options not less, and want all Unity employee to retain their jobs in the long run.

Last edited by EpicRandy - on 24 September 2023

Good to see them forced to backtrack.
I suspect the damage is done and that devs will be wary of using Unity for future projects, but at least this should be a reprieve for those already on the market or too far along to switch.
It's a pity, we need more not less diversity of engine technology on the market.



Reading their latest apologies I'm thinking this may be a blessing in disguise in the future (hopefully).

Unity knew full well they messed up and has lost a lot of support, so they may be headed to the point where they will continue to offer more incentives so they can still have some business rather than no business at all, and they will never try to pull another stunt like that again.

......also a new CEO would help their image :P



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Finally, Riccitiello will quit

Like myself and many others here have been saying, a reversal was not going to be enough, and a new CEO was required to build back trust and we were right.

It will still be a hard year ahead for Unity especially since they already operated at a loss, and there's no way around the fact they lost customers even if mitigated by the reversal and now the new CEO. This whole debacle also served their competitor and other open-source solutions a publicity spotlight they could never achieve on their own.

But at least, now I feel many actors will have an easier time giving Unity another chance and some will probably reevaluate changing to another solution by weighing the cost of doing so to the ever-decreasing risk of Unity doing something akin again. 

Now the question is who will replace him, I hope for someone more down-to-earth.



Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out pal.
Somebody had to take the fall for this debacle, and I can't say I feel sorry it's Ricitiello after his long history of being a shady bastard.

What's hilarious is that rather than taking this opportunity to kick the opposition while it's down, their big rival Epic recently jacked up the price of Unreal Engine for non-gaming clients, amid news they're struggling financially: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/epic-games-to-update-unreal-engine-pricing-for-devs-outside-game-industry

Imagine how shit you must be at business to be losing money when you own f-cking Unreal Engine lmao

Last edited by curl-6 - on 09 October 2023

curl-6 said:

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out pal.
Somebody had to take the fall for this debacle, and I can't say I feel sorry it's Ricitiello after his long history of being a shady bastard.

What's hilairous is that rather than taking this opportunity to kick the opposition while it's down, their big rival Epic recently jacked up the price of Unreal Engine for non-gaming clients, amid news they're struggling financially: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/epic-games-to-update-unreal-engine-pricing-for-devs-outside-game-industry

Imagine how shit you must be at business to be losing money when you own f-cking Unreal Engine lmao

Also imagine how mismanaged a business has to be to have financial issues when it has a money printer as successful as bloody Fortnite.



Funny how when shit hits the fan, the guy just dips out shortly after, like every time.

I hope this time he fully retires and stays out of everyone's business.



Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

EpicRandy said:

Finally, Riccitiello will quit

Like myself and many others here have been saying, a reversal was not going to be enough, and a new CEO was required to build back trust and we were right.

It will still be a hard year ahead for Unity especially since they already operated at a loss, and there's no way around the fact they lost customers even if mitigated by the reversal and now the new CEO. This whole debacle also served their competitor and other open-source solutions a publicity spotlight they could never achieve on their own.

But at least, now I feel many actors will have an easier time giving Unity another chance and some will probably reevaluate changing to another solution by weighing the cost of doing so to the ever-decreasing risk of Unity doing something akin again. 

Now the question is who will replace him, I hope for someone more down-to-earth.

I wonder, if Riccitiello had been kicked out immediately after the controversy, would Unity's imaged had been as damaged as it has been?



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.