By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why Do People View the MS Acquisition of ABK as a "Good Thing?"

Tagged games:

SvennoJ said:
EpicRandy said:

"Anyway I see no benefit for me in this deal"

Yes, and that's perfectly fine, the deal never was going to please everyone and his not perfect for me either I see many cons to it. On a personal note, there might be bad and there might be pros, we might be for or against it, and to that extent we can use every generality/singled out property we see fit.

But it's completely another thing to say it should be blocked or allowed, that should 100% be based on the ins and outs of the transaction itself and its impact on the relevant market under the current laws, and not idealistic ones, with fairness in regards to how similar case has been adjudicated in the past.

The separation between the 2 concepts is hard to make sometimes and tends to be mixed together. I tend to focus much on the latter while public forum will, of course, tend to focus on the former, but focusing on the latter is the only way to remove oneself from the equation (not that I pretend to do that perfectly, but I try and I'm open to challenge if someone thinks my personal opinion was at play in my argument then we could debate if that's amounts to anything and readjust).

Agreed, but I'm still of the opinion that consolidation is bad for creativity in general. As well as infrastructure and content creation should remain separated. That's how we ended up with walled gardens in the first place. MS is basically working on the next walled garden, subscription + cloud infrastructure + content. If only MSX had caught on in the USA history could have been very different. Yet Nintendo showed, convenience trumps versatility.

Let me preface with this: I much enjoy our discussion, always nice to see we can speak reasonably with someone and understand each other, especially with opposing views.

I'm gonna focus on the creativity aspect because the rest I either lack knowledge and so will take too much time to do proper research or I have so much that I would write the equivalent of an academic Essay.

"I'm still of the opinion that consolidation is bad for creativity in general"

It depends but yes with caveats, generally speaking, if we take a look at big actors in the industry and AAA content you'll see a lot of those reusing the same recipe and milking strategy. I'm not sure of all the factors involved in this and how 1 actor can diverge from the norm, it seems it is related to the size of the actors or maybe the diversity and size of the pool of shareholders a CEO as to please (like with more people watching over you deadlines become stiffer and there's higher pressure to guaranteed revenue).

So in a way yes totally agree yet there's another side to this, it creates opportunities for smaller players, indies, and hobbyists to fill the gap left by the bigger player that lost sight of it. Games like Stardew Valley are just pure enjoyment to me or Don't Starve a few years back, masterpieces of creativity, not sure though those would have been that successful if bigger players were as creative and pumped likewise content like there's no tomorrow due to their production capacity they would have on smaller scope title like these.

It also seems to be a part of a vicious cycle, the success of original Ips leads to growth which leads to insecurity vis-a-vis creativity which leads to milking by relying on what's known and more predictable. Though with this, consolidation is not a requirement, but may both act as something that speeds things up or actually leads to the opposite by securing the actors' funding which may help said actor to allow some creative projects (Pentiment comes to mind as a great example).

that said if we look at the current buyout, it does not look like it's even possible to decrease the creativity of ABK even further, A = CoD with all their studio being either development or support studios, can't be much less creative than that. B, the decade-long cycle of the same sequel is still a little more creative than A last original new IP was overwatch in 2016. K don't think the transaction will move the needle either way with them. The optics here is if MS gives them full independence, nothing will change in terms of creativity.

With MS they won't have shareholders monitoring that closely the revenues of ABK and so, the first thing they might do which would help their creativity is put CoD on a 2-year release cycle. We know ABK themselves want this but each time they release a new title and get their payday then suddenly they want to have the same the very next year. Yet a 2-year cycle may actually help the franchise if we remove the short-term vision to please shareholders on an annual basis. This would have the added benefit to free up devs with which doing creative work is a possibility, not a certainty but still better than the status quo. It's also one way MS may help establish the "let dev work on what they want to work on" approach they adopted a few years ago which led to titles like Sea of Thieves, Pentiment, Playground to work on a new Fable, and many others.

Last edited by EpicRandy - on 14 July 2023

Around the Network
EpicRandy said:

Let me preface with this: I much enjoy our discussion, always nice to see we can speak reasonably with someone and understand each other, especially with opposing views.

I'm gonna focus on the creativity aspect because the rest I either lack knowledge and so will take too much time to do proper research or I have so much that I would write the equivalent of an academic Essay.

"I'm still of the opinion that consolidation is bad for creativity in general"

It depends but yes with caveats, generally speaking, if we take a look at big actors in the industry and AAA content you'll see a lot of those reusing the same recipe and milking strategy. I'm not sure of all the factors involved in this and how 1 actor can diverge from the norm, it seems it is related to the size of the actors or maybe the diversity and size of the pool of shareholders a CEO as to please (like with more people watching over you deadlines become stiffer and there's higher pressure to guaranteed revenue).

So in a way yes totally agree yet there's another side to this, it creates opportunities for smaller players, indies, and hobbyists to fill the gap left by the bigger player that lost sight of it. Games like Stardew Valley are just pure enjoyment to me or Don't Starve a few years back, masterpieces of creativity, not sure though those would have been that successful if bigger players were as creative and pumped likewise content like there's no tomorrow due to their production capacity they would have on smaller scope title like these.

It also seems to be a part of a vicious cycle, the success of original Ips leads to growth which leads to insecurity vis-a-vis creativity which leads to milking by relying on what's known and more predictable. Though with this, consolidation is not a requirement, but may both act as something that speeds things up or actually leads to the opposite by securing the actors' funding which may help said actor to allow some creative projects (Pentiment comes to mind as a great example).

that said if we look at the current buyout, it does not look like it's even possible to decrease the creativity of ABK even further, A = CoD with all their studio being either development or support studios, can't be much less creative than that. B, the decade-long cycle of the same sequel is still a little more creative than A last original new IP was overwatch in 2016. K don't think the transaction will move the needle either way with them. The optics here is if MS gives them full independence, nothing will change in terms of creativity.

With MS they won't have shareholders monitoring that closely the revenues of ABK and so, the first thing they might do which would help their creativity is put CoD on a 2-year release cycle. We know ABK themselves want this but each time they release a new title and get their payday then suddenly they want to have the same the very next year. Yet a 2-year cycle may actually help the franchise if we remove the short-term vision to please shareholders on an annual basis. This would have the added benefit to free up devs with which doing creative work is a possibility, not a certainty but still better than the status quo. It's also one way MS may help establish the let dev work on what they want to work on they adopted it a few years ago which led to titles like Sea of Thieves, Pentiment, Playground to work on a new Fable, and many others.

Yes consolidation is part of a cycle where new players get a chance to fill the niches left over, which in turn can become big themselves. The one thing consolidation like this diminishes is the big players competing against each other. Bethesda doesn't need to compete with ABK anymore and their releases can be coordinated instead of trying to 'one up' each other.

And true, Activision couldn't sink much lower when it comes to creativity. Sea of Thieves didn't come until Rare was pretty much diminished to nothing, having to work on Kinect etc. And while it looks nice, it held our attention for only 2 days. (But that's more on the part of Rare refusing to have a PvE server next to the game being very obtuse to new comers)

However MS has shareholders as well, and they very much will like to see a return on this recent buying spree. So I'm not so sure the revenues will be less closely monitored and the teams given the go ahead to make something fun. I imagine more will be put to work on the mobile version. So yeah 2 year cycle with the people freed up shifted to mobile titles...



SvennoJ said:
EpicRandy said:

Let me preface with this: I much enjoy our discussion, always nice to see we can speak reasonably with someone and understand each other, especially with opposing views.

I'm gonna focus on the creativity aspect because the rest I either lack knowledge and so will take too much time to do proper research or I have so much that I would write the equivalent of an academic Essay.

"I'm still of the opinion that consolidation is bad for creativity in general"

It depends but yes with caveats, generally speaking, if we take a look at big actors in the industry and AAA content you'll see a lot of those reusing the same recipe and milking strategy. I'm not sure of all the factors involved in this and how 1 actor can diverge from the norm, it seems it is related to the size of the actors or maybe the diversity and size of the pool of shareholders a CEO as to please (like with more people watching over you deadlines become stiffer and there's higher pressure to guaranteed revenue).

So in a way yes totally agree yet there's another side to this, it creates opportunities for smaller players, indies, and hobbyists to fill the gap left by the bigger player that lost sight of it. Games like Stardew Valley are just pure enjoyment to me or Don't Starve a few years back, masterpieces of creativity, not sure though those would have been that successful if bigger players were as creative and pumped likewise content like there's no tomorrow due to their production capacity they would have on smaller scope title like these.

It also seems to be a part of a vicious cycle, the success of original Ips leads to growth which leads to insecurity vis-a-vis creativity which leads to milking by relying on what's known and more predictable. Though with this, consolidation is not a requirement, but may both act as something that speeds things up or actually leads to the opposite by securing the actors' funding which may help said actor to allow some creative projects (Pentiment comes to mind as a great example).

that said if we look at the current buyout, it does not look like it's even possible to decrease the creativity of ABK even further, A = CoD with all their studio being either development or support studios, can't be much less creative than that. B, the decade-long cycle of the same sequel is still a little more creative than A last original new IP was overwatch in 2016. K don't think the transaction will move the needle either way with them. The optics here is if MS gives them full independence, nothing will change in terms of creativity.

With MS they won't have shareholders monitoring that closely the revenues of ABK and so, the first thing they might do which would help their creativity is put CoD on a 2-year release cycle. We know ABK themselves want this but each time they release a new title and get their payday then suddenly they want to have the same the very next year. Yet a 2-year cycle may actually help the franchise if we remove the short-term vision to please shareholders on an annual basis. This would have the added benefit to free up devs with which doing creative work is a possibility, not a certainty but still better than the status quo. It's also one way MS may help establish the let dev work on what they want to work on they adopted it a few years ago which led to titles like Sea of Thieves, Pentiment, Playground to work on a new Fable, and many others.

Yes consolidation is part of a cycle where new players get a chance to fill the niches left over, which in turn can become big themselves. The one thing consolidation like this diminishes is the big players competing against each other. Bethesda doesn't need to compete with ABK anymore and their releases can be coordinated instead of trying to 'one up' each other.

And true, Activision couldn't sink much lower when it comes to creativity. Sea of Thieves didn't come until Rare was pretty much diminished to nothing, having to work on Kinect etc. And while it looks nice, it held our attention for only 2 days. (But that's more on the part of Rare refusing to have a PvE server next to the game being very obtuse to new comers)

However MS has shareholders as well, and they very much will like to see a return on this recent buying spree. So I'm not so sure the revenues will be less closely monitored and the teams given the go ahead to make something fun. I imagine more will be put to work on the mobile version. So yeah 2 year cycle with the people freed up shifted to mobile titles...

Competition on game content is not as cut-dry as other markets though, even though they may compete they largely do so on the release window more than anything else. The thing is, unless a title is specifically created to largely copy another (CoD and Battlefield for instance), they're too unique so Players are not that often in a position where they buy one or the other unless they shared the exact same release window. This is also evidenced by the fact smaller player does thrive. If the gaming content industry was as competitive with one another as the movie industry, the indie game would be like an indie movie, relegated to an indie movie festival once a year, and very few theater reserved projections. (of course, video games are not literally bound to a place in theater but just to say the market will leave them an extremely thin margin)

Yeah, Sea of Thieves did not win me much either but it is still a good player base and is still a great example of creativity, especially with a big AAA studio. Yes, Rare was trashed by the Kinect ventures but that's what prompted MS to shift its management style to what it is today and allowed the creativity to comeback. 

By less closely monitored I mean the title value of ABK will be merged into MS stock value and the impact of 1 missed deadline will be immensely reduced to a bleep by MS overall revenue. Also with MS structure Spencer is also shielded from direct investor influence, investor deals with MS, and MS deals with Xbox. Xbox might have the mandate to profit but as of now, I think Spencer has a pretty great proven ability to have MS not look too much at short-term gains VS a more long-term vision evidenced by many of the actions successfully taken by Spencer since he seated as the head of Xbox which required a lot of investment to be recouped on the long term.



EpicRandy said:
SvennoJ said:

The CMA seems fine now with splitting off cloud streaming for the UK. So for the console and mobile space it's all fine.

Anyway I see no benefit for me in this deal. If XBox diverts attention to mobile, means even less chance for MS to get interested in VR. Sony is off chasing the live service dream, a dozen of those in the works vs nothing for PSVR2 afaik. Plus with MS' zero interest in VR, VR ports of ABK games are definitely off the table, just like Skyrim will most likely not come to PSVR2 now, definitely not Starfield. Nintendo lost interest as well, BotW had an experimental VR mode but TotK dropped it. Of course Nintendo could still do something with Switch 2.

But such is life with big corporations. Mobile and GAAS is where the (new) money is.


"Anyway I see no benefit for me in this deal"

Yes, and that's perfectly fine, the deal never was going to please everyone and his not perfect for me either I see many cons to it. On a personal note, there might be bad and there might be pros, we might be for or against it, and to that extent we can use every generality/singled out property we see fit.

But it's completely another thing to say it should be blocked or allowed, that should 100% be based on the ins and outs of the transaction itself and its impact on the relevant market under the current laws, and not idealistic ones, with fairness in regards to how similar case has been adjudicated in the past.

The separation between the 2 concepts is hard to make sometimes and tends to be mixed together. I tend to focus much on the latter while public forum will, of course, tend to focus on the former, but focusing on the latter is the only way to remove oneself from the equation (not that I pretend to do that perfectly, but I try and I'm open to challenge if someone thinks my personal opinion was at play in my argument then we could debate if that's amounts to anything and readjust).

Care to elaborate what you mean by the bolded? 



VAMatt said:
Ka-pi96 said:

And who do you think runs those courts...

Yeah, we're never going to agree. You sound like the type of person that wouldn't be opposed to slavery making a come back. Don't know whether it's because you're rich and happily exploit people, or because you're used to bending over for your corporate overlords, but plenty of us like actually having rights even if you don't.

You are right that government courts are also a problem. But, that's a different conversation. 

It ridiculous to say that I would be okay with slavery making a return. That's what you are supporting: Government controlling things, even though the institution has an incredibly bad track record, is responsible for the vast majority of human suffering both now and throughout history, and has been part and parcel of essentially all widespread slavery issues in human history. And, in fact, when you claim that rights exist that impose obligations on other people, you are supporting slavery.  It is impossible to have a right to a job, or a right to money, or a right to a big check on your way out of a job, without requiring other people to give you those things. If that's not slavery, I don't know what is. 

As for me, I'm definitely not rich, nor have I ever stayed in a shitty job. When the job sucks, I leave it. I've been a union member, son of a union organizer, a small business owner that's had the same employees for many years, in an area with an extremely competitive job market. Employees stay with me because I treat them well. I treat them well because if I don't, they will leave.  Plus it's the right thing to do.  But, you better believe that I'll fire you on a heartbeat if you are a drag on the company. The good people that have worked with me for years shouldn't be asked to carry dead weight simply because it sucks when you lose your job.

Governments ended slavery, and continue to do so. Just the other day I saw a thread on reddit from a Lithuanian guy in the UK who had his passport stolen by his boss and was having all of his (below minimum wage) pay taken by his boss to pay for rent and a made up 20k debt. The overwhelming majority of people suggested he contact the police ASAP. Because preventing slavery like that in 1st world countries is what the government does. Do you seriously think the police should just say "meh, not our problem, get a better job" when contacted about something like that?

How is having legal requirements to treat employees a certain way "slavery"? Do you even know what that word means? So you think a boss should be able to fire any employees that refuse to have sex with him with no legal repercussions at all? Madness.

And don't give me this "get a better job" crap. The vast majority of people on this planet can't just walk into a new better job. They would if they could, but they can't. And even if they're currently looking for a better job being unemployed doesn't pay the bills so they're forced to continue whatever job they currently have. Why on Earth shouldn't their employers be legally required to actually treat them like humans with dignity and respect rather than being able to exploit them and threaten to fire them for any little thing?

Wanting minimal regulation is one thing, but none at all? Seriously?

Last edited by Ka-pi96 - on 15 July 2023

Around the Network

It's good because

1) Nintendo systems will see these games

2) Sony has been too complacent, and this gen from them has been boring so far. They need to become like Nintendo and focus on their 1st party games. The rest is gravy on top.



 

 

Cobretti2 said:

It's good because

1) Nintendo systems will see these games

2) Sony has been too complacent, and this gen from them has been boring so far. They need to become like Nintendo and focus on their 1st party games. The rest is gravy on top.

They don't have any trouble with that. 

Regarding complacency, I disagree. They just released a new VR device, a pro controller, a gaming monitor, and plenty of games up to this point. If that stuff is of no interest to you, I get it, but they've not just sat around doing nothing. They and Nintendo have knocked it out of the park with what they've got and their commercial reception is a testament to that. 

Also, Microsoft acquiring Acti isn't going to move the needle. COD is remaining multiplatform (the only place this could have had a seriously negative impact on them). The purchase is not about exclusive games because there is a far bigger target and mindset at play.

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 15 July 2023

                                                                                                                                                           

Ka-pi96 said:
VAMatt said:

You are right that government courts are also a problem. But, that's a different conversation. 

It ridiculous to say that I would be okay with slavery making a return. That's what you are supporting: Government controlling things, even though the institution has an incredibly bad track record, is responsible for the vast majority of human suffering both now and throughout history, and has been part and parcel of essentially all widespread slavery issues in human history. And, in fact, when you claim that rights exist that impose obligations on other people, you are supporting slavery.  It is impossible to have a right to a job, or a right to money, or a right to a big check on your way out of a job, without requiring other people to give you those things. If that's not slavery, I don't know what is. 

As for me, I'm definitely not rich, nor have I ever stayed in a shitty job. When the job sucks, I leave it. I've been a union member, son of a union organizer, a small business owner that's had the same employees for many years, in an area with an extremely competitive job market. Employees stay with me because I treat them well. I treat them well because if I don't, they will leave.  Plus it's the right thing to do.  But, you better believe that I'll fire you on a heartbeat if you are a drag on the company. The good people that have worked with me for years shouldn't be asked to carry dead weight simply because it sucks when you lose your job.

Governments ended slavery, and continue to do so. Just the other day I saw a thread on reddit from a Lithuanian guy in the UK who had his passport stolen by his boss and was having all of his (below minimum wage) pay taken by his boss to pay for rent and a made up 20k debt. The overwhelming majority of people suggested he contact the police ASAP. Because preventing slavery like that in 1st world countries is what the government does. Do you seriously think the police should just say "meh, not our problem, get a better job" when contacted about something like that?

How is having legal requirements to treat employees a certain way "slavery"? Do you even know what that word means? So you think a boss should be able to fire any employees that refuse to have sex with him with no legal repercussions at all? Madness.

And don't give me this "get a better job" crap. The vast majority of people on this planet can't just walk into a new better job. They would if they could, but they can't. And even if they're currently looking for a better job being unemployed doesn't pay the bills so they're forced to continue whatever job they currently have. Why on Earth shouldn't their employers be legally required to actually treat them like humans with dignity and respect rather than being able to exploit them and threaten to fire them for any little thing?

Wanting minimal regulation is one thing, but none at all? Seriously?

You're pointing to isolated cases where you think government did something good. I've never said, nor would I ever say, that government is incapable of doing good things. What I'm saying is that government is a net negative.  For every good thing it does, it does two bad ones.

Institutional slavery has existed in this world because government allowed it to. Government tracked down and captured escaped slaves in the United States just 150 years ago, for example.  Government in China is capturing and enslaving people right now. 

Anyway, if you look objectively at the institution of government and all the harm that it has and currently is causing around the world, then I don't want to see how you can possibly want government intervening in employment relationships.



CGI-Quality said:
Cobretti2 said:

It's good because

1) Nintendo systems will see these games

2) Sony has been too complacent, and this gen from them has been boring so far. They need to become like Nintendo and focus on their 1st party games. The rest is gravy on top.

They don't have any trouble with that. 

Regarding complacency, I disagree. They just released a new VR device, a pro controller, a gaming monitor, and plenty of games up to this point. If that stuff is of no interest to you, I get that, but they've not just sat around doing nothing. Both them and Nintendo have knocked it out of the park with what they've got and their commercial reception is a testament to that. 

Also, Microsoft acquiring Acti isn't going to move the needle. COD is remaining multiplatform (the only place this could have had a seriously negative impact on them). The purchase is not about exclusive games because there is a far bigger target and mindset at play.

It's a positive impact for Nintendo. Haven't seen a COD game in years on the system.

Pro controller that costs just under half the console in AUS 339 vs 699 is hardly a selling point and a new monitor cool but not something most people are dying to upgrade when they have a perfectly fine working TV.

Innovation I meant more from games perspective, they used to be more exciting in the past now I don't know maybe I am getting older. Maybe cause we used to get E3 and it was all in your face and was more hype for games now it just feels flat. Hell maybe cause the bar was so high for so long, got used to that feeling and now it feels underwhelming, as looking for the next level of high.

I agree in terms against Microsoft they are way ahead, but well no one really expect much from Microsoft so bar is low anyway lol.



 

 

CGI-Quality said:
Cobretti2 said:

It's good because

1) Nintendo systems will see these games

2) Sony has been too complacent, and this gen from them has been boring so far. They need to become like Nintendo and focus on their 1st party games. The rest is gravy on top.

They don't have any trouble with that. 

Regarding complacency, I disagree. They just released a new VR device, a pro controller, a gaming monitor, and plenty of games up to this point. If that stuff is of no interest to you, I get that, but they've not just sat around doing nothing. Both them and Nintendo have knocked it out of the park with what they've got and their commercial reception is a testament to that. 

Also, Microsoft acquiring Acti isn't going to move the needle. COD is remaining multiplatform (the only place this could have had a seriously negative impact on them). The purchase is not about exclusive games because there is a far bigger target and mindset at play.

It's for sure gonna move the needle. All Activision Blizzard games being on Game Pass and Microsoft having control of marketing of them going forward will make a difference. I've seen people say that Hogwarts Legacy is a Playstation exclusive so stuff like the Xbox logo being at the end of all the trailers will matter.