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Forums - Gaming Discussion - (Business Perspective) Does MS really need Xbox Hardware?

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Azzanation said:
Hiku said:

Well this goes for any company. Without competition, they may be more likely to steer down the wrong path.

I don't think Xbox needs to outsell Playstation or Nintendo to be successful.
While I do agree that 3 consoles, from my personal point of view, always felt like at least one too many. But for others it's not an issue.

I think it's too early to determine if MS will drop out of the hardware business next gen since that's likely 5+ years away.
I think they'll try to continue even if they don't set any sales records or don't make too much money from it vs going full service mode, because there will be players who prefer their controlers, etc.

Hiko, i have been a Steam user for decades and to this day, with or without competition, they have done everything that supports me as a customer. You don't need competition if you can have faith with the company. Sounds weird I know, same can be said for Nintendo. The issue is MS and Sony clearly cannot be trusted and will run away with everything if they can. As a business standpoint, I don't see the need for a 3rd platform and to MS it's only a money drain just to sell subs. 

Xbox will still make controllers and still make games, its just the dedicated hardware the business needs to justify. 

Well, I did say "may be more likely".
But others have pointed out how Steam differs (privately held company) and that it does have competition. Even consoles. Which I agree with.

Azzanation said:
the-pi-guy said:

It's harder to sell subs without hardware.

You need to play 4D chess here. 

Sony won't allow GP or any Subs from MS to appear on PS, as long as they have to compete with Xbox hardware.

If MS drop the hardware front and give Sony full reigns on hardware creation, then Sony would allow a modified GP service. They won't turn down the opportunity of quality IPs because it will further boost their own hardware sales.

What kind of Game Pass do you envision Sony would allow on its platform?
Because the current one gives out 'free' third party games Day 1 that Sony want to be able to sell themselves.



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Machiavellian said:
Azzanation said:

No they wont. How would MS be a threat to Sony by offering games to the PS platform that will boost PS console sales even further and Sony profits off? MS don't need to put subs on PS either, they can just use Sony's hardware to sell digital software that also makes Sony money. You really need to learn to play chess as well as know what you are talking about. Sony make money on Xbox games sold on PS. More games sold = more profits. Sony and MS don't hate each other like you think to believe. It's a business not a sport. There is no plastic trophy at the end of each generation.

Pemalite said:

They didn't at the time. Correct. I never said they did.

However, they do exist now. And they are the competitor to Steam.

Every market needs competition.

The current Console industry is full of bad competition. Xbox hardware is not needed.

MS will always be a threat to Sony because Sony has a service just like GP called PS+ but one thing it does not do is day one release of their own games.  GP directly competes with Sony services so why would Sony let such a service on their console that would compete with PS+.  Second, Sony also have a cloud platform in PS Now that is part of their premium subscription just like XCloud is part of MS ultimate sub.  This means that GP on all levels competes with Sony and their services and there is no incentive to let MS run their services on their platform to compete with PS+.

Sony also will have an ambition to enter more Cloud based services or expand their own to multiple devices.  Your point only look at today but I never got the feeling that Sony would not want to enter those markets, they are just not moving as fast as MS because they have a commanding lead in consoles.  MS whole plan is disruptive to Sony and how they want to move and how fast they want to do it.  So no, advancing MS strategy and accelerating their ability to expand beyond consoles is not a benefit to Sony and no incentive for them to allow GP on their platform.  As far as Sony is concerned, they would be a much happier company if MS left the market period then having to worry about what other disruptive things a trillion dollar company can do to unseat their market position.  By the time Sony is ready to compete in the device market, they could find themselves way behind MS which is not a scenario they want to be in.  

If you kind of think about it Sony has been more reactive to MS then proactive when it comes to anything not hardware related.  They were more reactive to putting games on PC, reactive to expanding PS+ to compete with GP and they are still reactive to driving into the devices market because it marginalized their console.  This is why they really fought hard to block the ABK deal.  Their just isn't any benefit to accelerating MS goal for Sony and they they would need to react to it but at a less financial base.

Also there is nothing stop MS from putting games on PS platform even today.  You forget that if MS want to they can still publish Bethedsa games to PS if they desire.  We are not talking about MS putting their games on PS, we are talking about MS putting GP on PS which is something totally different.

Even if Sony bought Gaikai much earlier than MS considered GP they really haven't put much effort into it (be it marketing, servers, content) before GP started to get traction.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Additionally, if they go fully 3rd party, then Xbox Live Gold has to die, and a large perk of Game Pass Ultimate is Xbox Live Gold. So what does Microsoft do to replace it? I can't think of anything right now, which would cause millions to drop back down to Game Pass Regular = Less revenue.

Oh and they'd have to port all of their titles over to PlayStation and Switch...xCloud isn't going to cut it, that is at least 5-10 years away from being a viable option. So add on the additional costs and workflow of porting dozens, perhaps hundreds of titles over to other platforms.

And you'll have some who will drop Game Pass if it doesn't have 3rd parties to fill the quiet periods.

They'd lose the currently millions subbed to Game Pass on Xbox unless they transfer their accounts over to PlayStation/Nintendo.

They' need to significantly expand their Mobile presence, they'd have to carefully transfer the millions of Xbox Game Pass users over, they'd have to MASSIVELY improve on PC, lets use an example, if I became a PC Gamer, I sure as shit wouldn't use Windows Store over Steam which means no Game Pass for me.

Evidently that is the case for a lot of PC users, they hate Windows Store/are entrenched in Steam.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 05 May 2023

DonFerrari said:
Machiavellian said:

MS will always be a threat to Sony because Sony has a service just like GP called PS+ but one thing it does not do is day one release of their own games.  GP directly competes with Sony services so why would Sony let such a service on their console that would compete with PS+.  Second, Sony also have a cloud platform in PS Now that is part of their premium subscription just like XCloud is part of MS ultimate sub.  This means that GP on all levels competes with Sony and their services and there is no incentive to let MS run their services on their platform to compete with PS+.

Sony also will have an ambition to enter more Cloud based services or expand their own to multiple devices.  Your point only look at today but I never got the feeling that Sony would not want to enter those markets, they are just not moving as fast as MS because they have a commanding lead in consoles.  MS whole plan is disruptive to Sony and how they want to move and how fast they want to do it.  So no, advancing MS strategy and accelerating their ability to expand beyond consoles is not a benefit to Sony and no incentive for them to allow GP on their platform.  As far as Sony is concerned, they would be a much happier company if MS left the market period then having to worry about what other disruptive things a trillion dollar company can do to unseat their market position.  By the time Sony is ready to compete in the device market, they could find themselves way behind MS which is not a scenario they want to be in.  

If you kind of think about it Sony has been more reactive to MS then proactive when it comes to anything not hardware related.  They were more reactive to putting games on PC, reactive to expanding PS+ to compete with GP and they are still reactive to driving into the devices market because it marginalized their console.  This is why they really fought hard to block the ABK deal.  Their just isn't any benefit to accelerating MS goal for Sony and they they would need to react to it but at a less financial base.

Also there is nothing stop MS from putting games on PS platform even today.  You forget that if MS want to they can still publish Bethedsa games to PS if they desire.  We are not talking about MS putting their games on PS, we are talking about MS putting GP on PS which is something totally different.

Even if Sony bought Gaikai much earlier than MS considered GP they really haven't put much effort into it (be it marketing, servers, content) before GP started to get traction.

True Sony has not put that much effort in PS Now because it did not take off.  Pretty much the same reason why MS chose to make XCloud part of GP Ultimate and a add on because the business isn't there to sustain the service on its on.  That goes for GP as well, while a very good service, its no where close to being able to sustain itself on its on and Ryuu makes so big points on that as well.



Machiavellian said:
DonFerrari said:

Even if Sony bought Gaikai much earlier than MS considered GP they really haven't put much effort into it (be it marketing, servers, content) before GP started to get traction.

True Sony has not put that much effort in PS Now because it did not take off.  Pretty much the same reason why MS chose to make XCloud part of GP Ultimate and a add on because the business isn't there to sustain the service on its on.  That goes for GP as well, while a very good service, its no where close to being able to sustain itself on its on and Ryuu makes so big points on that as well.

I'm not sure on PSNow if Sony didn't put money because it didn't take off or if it didn't take off because Sony didn't pour enough resources.

For GP I would say that MS willing to put a big bet on investing heavily on it to put a lot of content have accelerated GP a lot even if the streaming at the moment isn't the core of the purpose (well TVs are starting to offer GP app on them, but the standalone stick or more TVs will still take couple years perhaps).

Not sure that if at the time GP have a sustainable model (because even if not at loss it would be growing without being fathered by the titles that are subsided by other areas of MS) Sony will have time to react fast enough to keep relevancy on streaming/renting model.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari said:
Machiavellian said:

True Sony has not put that much effort in PS Now because it did not take off.  Pretty much the same reason why MS chose to make XCloud part of GP Ultimate and a add on because the business isn't there to sustain the service on its on.  That goes for GP as well, while a very good service, its no where close to being able to sustain itself on its on and Ryuu makes so big points on that as well.

I'm not sure on PSNow if Sony didn't put money because it didn't take off or if it didn't take off because Sony didn't pour enough resources.

For GP I would say that MS willing to put a big bet on investing heavily on it to put a lot of content have accelerated GP a lot even if the streaming at the moment isn't the core of the purpose (well TVs are starting to offer GP app on them, but the standalone stick or more TVs will still take couple years perhaps).

Not sure that if at the time GP have a sustainable model (because even if not at loss it would be growing without being fathered by the titles that are subsided by other areas of MS) Sony will have time to react fast enough to keep relevancy on streaming/renting model.

It never took off because the performance was not their for a subscription service that is based in the cloud.  This is the same problem Google had and its the reason MS decided not to go the same route.  The only service that comes close to being viable is Nvidia Geforce now but that service is built on Nvidia Geforce chips and reflex which are just better hardware and software.  

I do not believe its a situation of Sony not able to respond, its a situation where its not the strongest part of their business and thus its a business model that does not have the revenue potentials of what they do best at the moment.  Sony is not looking to enter the market any more than they have to at their own speed, not at MS speed.  MS needs a disruption of the market way more than Sony does.



Azzanation said:
Pemalite said:

They didn't at the time. Correct. I never said they did.

However, they do exist now. And they are the competitor to Steam.

Every market needs competition.

The current Console industry is full of bad competition. Xbox hardware is not needed.

If it's bad competition...

We wouldn't get progress.
And considering we get a big jump in progress every generation, your statement doesn't hold water.

Xbox hardware is needed, it keeps Sony and Nintendo humble and mindful of consumers.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Machiavellian said:

MS will always be a threat to Sony because Sony has a service just like GP called PS+ but one thing it does not do is day one release of their own games.  GP directly competes with Sony services so why would Sony let such a service on their console that would compete with PS+.  Second, Sony also have a cloud platform in PS Now that is part of their premium subscription just like XCloud is part of MS ultimate sub.  This means that GP on all levels competes with Sony and their services and there is no incentive to let MS run their services on their platform to compete with PS+.

Sony also will have an ambition to enter more Cloud based services or expand their own to multiple devices.  Your point only look at today but I never got the feeling that Sony would not want to enter those markets, they are just not moving as fast as MS because they have a commanding lead in consoles.  MS whole plan is disruptive to Sony and how they want to move and how fast they want to do it.  So no, advancing MS strategy and accelerating their ability to expand beyond consoles is not a benefit to Sony and no incentive for them to allow GP on their platform.  As far as Sony is concerned, they would be a much happier company if MS left the market period then having to worry about what other disruptive things a trillion dollar company can do to unseat their market position.  By the time Sony is ready to compete in the device market, they could find themselves way behind MS which is not a scenario they want to be in.  

If you kind of think about it Sony has been more reactive to MS then proactive when it comes to anything not hardware related.  They were more reactive to putting games on PC, reactive to expanding PS+ to compete with GP and they are still reactive to driving into the devices market because it marginalized their console.  This is why they really fought hard to block the ABK deal.  Their just isn't any benefit to accelerating MS goal for Sony and they they would need to react to it but at a less financial base.

Also there is nothing stop MS from putting games on PS platform even today.  You forget that if MS want to they can still publish Bethedsa games to PS if they desire.  We are not talking about MS putting their games on PS, we are talking about MS putting GP on PS which is something totally different.

Companies like Sony and MS do deals all the time inside and outside of gaming. MS won't disappear from the gaming industry, they will just remove the hardware requirement. 

Sony will benefit greatly by having Xbox games on PS. They will make more money and that's the bottom line.

If Sony took your logic and completely want to abandon any sort of deal where MS can sell games off PS Platforms, they will be poking a bear a lot bigger than them, and i am referring to outside of gaming. Sony won't act this way because there is too much of a money opportunity to be gained. If Sony says no, then Sony have just given Nintendo and PC a monster advantage because they will most likely end up with all future Xbox and Bestheda games moving forward and Sony wont.

Pemalite said:
Azzanation said:

The current Console industry is full of bad competition. Xbox hardware is not needed.

If it's bad competition...

We wouldn't get progress.
And considering we get a big jump in progress every generation, your statement doesn't hold water.

Xbox hardware is needed, it keeps Sony and Nintendo humble and mindful of consumers.

We have Competition. Nintendo and Sony.



Azzanation said:
Pemalite said:

If it's bad competition...

We wouldn't get progress.
And considering we get a big jump in progress every generation, your statement doesn't hold water.

Xbox hardware is needed, it keeps Sony and Nintendo humble and mindful of consumers.

We have Competition. Nintendo and Sony.

Whilst Nintendo and Sony -are- competitors, they don't directly compete.

Sony and Nintendo appeal to different demographics and their platforms are completely different form factors. I.E. Fixed home console vs Portable.

And more competition is better, a duopoly is worse than a 3-way competitive market.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Machiavellian said:

MS will always be a threat to Sony because Sony has a service just like GP called PS+ but one thing it does not do is day one release of their own games. 

Talk about a threat. Pretty much 0 game in 2022, and 2 so far in 2023 with one rated 59/100.