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Shaunodon said:

Let me ask you something simple then. When did everyone suddenly agree to change the definition of these words? I sure as hell don't remember being invited.

Uncanny how the definition always gets changed by people who want to throw them around without consequence.

Now people who have infamously been labeled with 'extremist', 'far-right', 'fascist' and 'Nazi' are suddenly being mudered, and no one wants to take responsibility for these words anymore?

Let me show you an actual history of these words and their definitions that, last time I checked, are still correct by most dictionary definitions (even though half of them are co-opted by activists):

I'm skimming through some of the 5 hour video.

I also found a transcript

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FYEe2xkJcOVQqgvgeFgDizlPbV54CrYN/view

"How the myth of
‘Hitler’s Capitalism’ has persisted for so long is beyond me, as I discovered that Hitler was a
Socialist within about two hours of reading Mein Kampf after deciding to do videos on the
origins of the Holocaust. Have most historians on the Third Reich not read Mein Kampf, or
anything else Hitler wrote or said?
All I know is that, since Socialists consistently and collectively fail to define Socialism, we
shouldn’t take them at their word when they say ‘Hitler was not a Socialist’. How can
Socialists know what Socialism isn’t if they cannot define what Socialism is?"

This whole thing is just hilarious.  

Some of what I'm seeing is fine, dictionary definitions. They're also using a definition from a youtube video by Sargon of Akkad. A lot of quotes from random people - some of which he clearly doesn't understand. George Orwell was a socialist, and yet he's using his criticism of fascism in there as if it's against socialism.    

Even when he's using dictionary definitions, he effectively changes the definition in his explanation, maybe because he doesn't understand the nuances of the definition.  

A major issue with his argument is that he's conflating public with state owned. By this argument, the monarchy is socialist, because the government/monarch owns all the production.  

He also seems to argue that groups are socialist. From those two things, it wouldn't be hard to argue that every country on planet Earth ever, was actually socialist. 

Companies with shared ownership are clearly socialist. 

Also as a bonus:

Shaunodon said:

Literally just one page back: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9614999

"Once you enter the area of extremism - which is where Charlie Kirk is located in when it comes to politics - then Kirk being not extreme enough suffices as a reason to kill him.

The reason why far-right thinking leads to many more killings than far-left thinking is because the far-right's most common form (fascism) is explicitly about killing and getting rid of political opponents or groups of people who don't fit a clearly defined racial profile."

Cotinuing to spread slurs that dehumanise people. The exact same slur used by the radical shooter even. With many people agreeing.

That's fair, I was specifically looking for the word "extremist".  

What part of this rhetoric do you think dehumanizes people? 



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the-pi-guy said:
Shaunodon said:

Literally just one page back: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9614999

"Once you enter the area of extremism - which is where Charlie Kirk is located in when it comes to politics - then Kirk being not extreme enough suffices as a reason to kill him.

The reason why far-right thinking leads to many more killings than far-left thinking is because the far-right's most common form (fascism) is explicitly about killing and getting rid of political opponents or groups of people who don't fit a clearly defined racial profile."

Cotinuing to spread slurs that dehumanise people. The exact same slur used by the radical shooter even. With many people agreeing.

That's fair, I was specifically looking for the word "extremist".  

What part of this rhetoric do you think dehumanizes people? 

The part where a shooter writes those words on bullets to feel justified in killing them.



https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/exclusive-leaked-messages-from-charlie

They didn't post the link for this, but I think this quote comes from here:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/tyler-robinson-hearing-charlie-kirk-suspect-shooter-live-updates-rcna231440

Tyler Robinson told his roommate that he had planned the shooting for a little over a week and had hoped to keep it a secret "until I died of old age," Utah County Attorney Jeff Gray said.
The roommate told authorities that Robinson texted on Sept. 10 and told the roommate to look under a keyboard.

"Drop what you're doing, look under my keyboard," the message read, according to Gray.
A note was under the keyboard that stated: "I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to take it."

After reading the note, the roommate texted Robinson and asked if he was joking. Robinson responded: "I am still OK, my love. … Shouldn't be long till I can home, but I gotta grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret until I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you."

The roommate then asked Robinson if he was involved in the shooting. Robinson confirmed that he was and said he intended to grab his rifle, but the area was on lockdown.
When the roommate asked why he did it, Robinson responded: "I had enough of his hate. Some hate can't be negotiated out."

Robinson instructed the roommate to delete their text conversation, Gray said.





Since you mentioned Orwell:

https://quillette.com/2023/04/21/orwell-and-socialism/

"The typical socialist is not a ferocious working man in greasy overalls and a raucous voice. He is either a useful snob or a prim little man with a white-collar job—usually a secret teetotaler and often with vegetarian leanings, with a history of non-conformity behind him and a social position he has no intention of forfeiting.

In addition to these two types is the disquieting presence of cranks. Socialism draws into itself by magnetic force every juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex maniac, Quaker, Nature cure quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

These groups alienate decent people.

And there are the middle-class socialists who talk about a classless society but will never give up their own social prestige."

"Orwell suggested socialism appealed chiefly to unsatisfactory or even inhuman types:

You have the warm-hearted unthinking socialist, the typical working class socialist, who only wants to abolish poverty and doesn’t understand what that implies. On the other hand, you have the intellectual book-trained socialist, who understands that it is necessary to destroy the current civilization and is quite willing to do so. And this latter group is drawn almost entirely from the middle class and from a rootless town-bred section of the middle class at that.

Still more unfortunately, it includes – so much so that to an outsider it even appears to be composed of the kind of people I have been discussing – foaming denouncers of the Bourgeoise, the more water in the beer types of which Shaw is the prototype, and the astute young social-literary climbers who are communists now, and will be fascists five years from now, and then all that dreary tribe of high minded women, and sandal wearers, and bearded fruit juice drinkers who come knocking toward the smell of progress like bluebottles to a dead cat."

"Orwell believed that a rise of fascism can result from socialist parties failing to control their members. The appearance of communism is a signal the labor class is unraveling and the only way to save a capitalist system is a transition to fascism. Fascism achieves the goal of socialism while retaining fundamental values like religion and nationalism.

Orwell believed that socialism could prevail over fascism if class distinctions could be put aside. He feared that if England failed to build a strong party of labor, fascism would prevail. If it came to a struggle between socialism and fascism, he hoped the diverse socialist groups would unite for the cause and put aside their differences.

Obviously, Orwell could not see the future from 1937. He was frustrated by the lack of progress socialism was making and worried that socialism’s competitors had the upper hand in a world rejecting capitalism. He could not foresee fascism would be destroyed by its lust for power and universally condemned as an unjust political system. He knew the Soviet Union was a corrupt authoritarian oligarchy, but did not know that its success, too, would be limited.

Capitalism and democracy won the Second World War and became the dominant political system worldwide because they represented the best path to opportunity and freedom. As for socialism, it remains today the fragmented ideology of the Left."

-Michael C. Anderson has a PhD in Information Science and has been a writer for over 20 years. His fourth book, ‘Twilight of the American Experiment,’

That a snobby enough degree for the masses?



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Shaunodon said:
Machiavellian said:

So can you sum up what you are trying to say.  Are saying that currently people are saying far-right or people who consider themselves far right are being dehumanize as being violent.  Or are you saying people are labeling Charlie Kirk as far right and that is not true and thus dehumanizing him.  

I don't know if Charlie Kirk considered himself far-right. You only have to look what's happening in the world to see how many people either agree or sympathise with him. Many people who share almost no opinions with him, still believe he was reasonable and civil. But almost everyone here seems to truly believe he was a far-right, extremist, fascist or Nazi. They have aligned all of those definitions to be practically synonymous.

If they believe everyone who agrees with Charlie Kirk is a fascist or a Nazi, where exactly do you think that's leading?

Yes, while there are some people who believe Charlie Kirk is alt right and even some may consider how he debated gave the impression of Nazi rhetoric, that isn't everyone.  The thing is especially myself, I am always willing to hear a counterpoint so if you disagreed with those assessments of Charlie Kirk than feel free to share your opinion.  I personally feel that Kirk used dog whistle references to target a specific group.  Case in point DEI.

The argument from Kirk was that DEI allowed people who were unqualified to take jobs from qualified individuals.  Now if you listened to his debate on this subject he used black people to make his point which mind you he has used black people to make his point on a lot of subjects.  When he was discussing Airline pilots after an incidents that occurred, his examples used black people even though the incident had no black pilot.  Now at no time has there ever been stated that DEI means that someone who was hired because of it did not have to take the same exams and qualifications as anyone else.  If there were a threshold that all needed to pass in order to be a pilot than everyone had to pass at that threshold.  Charlie never made these distinctions and his words on the subject gave the impression that DEI only applied to black people when it was shone the group that benefited the most from DEI were white woman and Black people were at the bottom of the list.

So my point here is if Kirk really was someone who research and studied the things he talked about he would know these numbers.  Instead he framed his argument along racial lines and used black people as his examples because they are the target community for alt right believing Black People are obtaining jobs over them without the qualifications needed to do that job.  Remember he also made the same statements about black woman he felt were unfit stealing jobs from white person.  These statements if Kirk was truly a Christian as he says doesn't fit with the faith and move more towards alt right and that group who feel any black person doesn't have the processing power to command a position of high intelligence. 

So to sum up my point, when talking what he has said, why does it not appeal to a particular group who also have the same sentiments. 



Shaunodon said:
the-pi-guy said:

That's fair, I was specifically looking for the word "extremist".  

What part of this rhetoric do you think dehumanizes people? 

The part where a shooter writes those words on bullets to feel justified in killing them.

So from what Pi posted, it doesn't appear that the quotes were any justification as to him wanting to kill Kirk but the same motivations many Americans have to kill another person, He hated Kirk enough to want to end his life.  Basically all he was doing is trolling because he knew the news cycle would go nuts over it but in the end his motivation were he though Kirk was evil. 



JFC, Orwell literally fought a war for socialism (and against fascism) in Spain (a country he wasn't born in) as a member of the centrist marxist Independent Labour Party (a party that was left of the mainstream Democratic Socialist Labour party.) 

He fought with the similarly centrist marxist POUM.

This is what their flag looked like. 

His real ideological sympathies were with the anarcho-syndicalist CNT-FAI. 

Is this flag familiar? 

And this is literally what he said a year before his death. 

"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 [Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four were written in 1945 and 1949 respectively] has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for Democratic Socialism, as I understand it."

What happened in 1936? That's when he fought in the Spanish Civil War and revolution for socialism.

He is well to the left of so-called "far-leftists" in American politics like Bernie Sanders, Zohran Mamdani and AOC. 

All of this could be gleaned if one read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. 

Covering the period between December 1936 and June 1937, Orwell recounts Catalonia's revolutionary fervor during his training in Barcelona, his boredom on the front lines in Aragon, his involvement in the interfactional May Days conflict back in Barcelona on leave, his getting shot in the throat back on the front lines, and his escape to France after the POUM was declared an illegal organization. The war was one of the defining events of his political outlook and a significant part of what led him to write in 1946, "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it."

We don't need to speculate on Orwell's politics, he told (and showed) us what they were. He literally fought a war against fascists and fascism. 

Last edited by sc94597 - on 16 September 2025

And again, if anybody doubted Orwell being far left. 

“I have no particular love for the idealized “worker” as he appears in the bourgeois Communist’s mind, but when I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on.”

And note, Orwell himself was an imperial police officer in India in his younger days. 



Shaunodon said:

Since you mentioned Orwell:

https://quillette.com/2023/04/21/orwell-and-socialism/

"The typical socialist is not a ferocious working man in greasy overalls and a raucous voice. He is either a useful snob or a prim little man with a white-collar job—usually a secret teetotaler and often with vegetarian leanings, with a history of non-conformity behind him and a social position he has no intention of forfeiting.

In addition to these two types is the disquieting presence of cranks. Socialism draws into itself by magnetic force every juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex maniac, Quaker, Nature cure quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

These groups alienate decent people.

And there are the middle-class socialists who talk about a classless society but will never give up their own social prestige."

"Orwell suggested socialism appealed chiefly to unsatisfactory or even inhuman types:

You have the warm-hearted unthinking socialist, the typical working class socialist, who only wants to abolish poverty and doesn’t understand what that implies. On the other hand, you have the intellectual book-trained socialist, who understands that it is necessary to destroy the current civilization and is quite willing to do so. And this latter group is drawn almost entirely from the middle class and from a rootless town-bred section of the middle class at that.

Still more unfortunately, it includes – so much so that to an outsider it even appears to be composed of the kind of people I have been discussing – foaming denouncers of the Bourgeoise, the more water in the beer types of which Shaw is the prototype, and the astute young social-literary climbers who are communists now, and will be fascists five years from now, and then all that dreary tribe of high minded women, and sandal wearers, and bearded fruit juice drinkers who come knocking toward the smell of progress like bluebottles to a dead cat."

"Orwell believed that a rise of fascism can result from socialist parties failing to control their members. The appearance of communism is a signal the labor class is unraveling and the only way to save a capitalist system is a transition to fascism. Fascism achieves the goal of socialism while retaining fundamental values like religion and nationalism.

Orwell believed that socialism could prevail over fascism if class distinctions could be put aside. He feared that if England failed to build a strong party of labor, fascism would prevail. If it came to a struggle between socialism and fascism, he hoped the diverse socialist groups would unite for the cause and put aside their differences.

Obviously, Orwell could not see the future from 1937. He was frustrated by the lack of progress socialism was making and worried that socialism’s competitors had the upper hand in a world rejecting capitalism. He could not foresee fascism would be destroyed by its lust for power and universally condemned as an unjust political system. He knew the Soviet Union was a corrupt authoritarian oligarchy, but did not know that its success, too, would be limited.

Capitalism and democracy won the Second World War and became the dominant political system worldwide because they represented the best path to opportunity and freedom. As for socialism, it remains today the fragmented ideology of the Left."

-Michael C. Anderson has a PhD in Information Science and has been a writer for over 20 years. His fourth book, ‘Twilight of the American Experiment,’

That a snobby enough degree for the masses?

I can find snobby degree holding people who peddle nonsense. That's an appeal to authority.

On the first part of it, this seems very selective. I say bad things about leftists myself. I'm very critical about ResetEra. And I generally think that most people, whether they are on the left or the right are not doing tons of research to get to their views. I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me a right winger. 

Even if there's truth to the rest of it - and I'm not sure that there is, I don't think most of it points to him not being a socialist.