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zeldaring said:
SvennoJ said:

That's a healthy attitude as long as you apply that to all media. And no doubt Russia has a more positive appearance in Middle Eastern media atm as it's still a semi super power demanding a ceasefire and supporting Palestine. But make no mistake, Putin doesn't do this out of empathy for Palestinians. Prior to the current war Russia had a deal with Israel not to sell weapons to Ukraine and Georgia, for Russia not to sell weapons to Iran.

https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/91073

In 2019, Netanyahu even launched his election campaign with large posters of himself shaking hands with the Russian president. Netanyahu sought to portray himself as a leader of the same standing as Putin—perceived in Israel as the head of a great power—and to convey the message that his close ties with Putin would help ensure Israel’s security following Russia’s 2015 military intervention in Syria. The Israeli leader had long boasted that his alleged “personal friendship” with Putin was key to ensuring limited Russian support for Iran and getting Moscow to turn a blind eye to Israeli strikes against Iranian targets in Syria. 

Unlike other Western states, Israel did not fundamentally change its approach to Russia following the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine. Israel did not impose any financial sanctions on Russia, declined to send weapons to Kyiv despite repeated requests from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, and failed to name Russia when addressing attacks against Ukraine. Israel was unwilling to sever ties with Russia, and even started to adopt a cooperative approach in the second half of 2023 by signing new bilateral agreements in nonsensitive sectors, such as the cultural field.

Currently Russia sees an opportunity to gain more influence in the Middle East by isolating the USA in the UN and world opinion by appearing to be against genocide, while actively engaged in their own genocide.


The US has made many mistakes in the Middle East, mostly while cleaning up the mess the UK and other imperialist countries left behind. The UK 'gave' Palestine to the Jews to get their support. In 1917, in order to win Jewish support for Britain's First World War effort, the British Balfour Declaration promised the establishment of a Jewish national home in Ottoman-controlled Palestine.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Balfour-Declaration

The British government hoped that the declaration would rally Jewish opinion, especially in the United States, to the side of the Allied powers against the Central Powers during World War I (1914–18). They hoped also that the settlement in Palestine of a pro-British Jewish population might help to protect the approaches to the Suez Canal in neighbouring Egypt and thus ensure a vital communication route to British colonial possessions in India.

Britain gained Palestine from the French in the Sykes-Picot agreement in 1916

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-the-curse-of-sykes-picot-still-haunts-the-middle-east

The Sykes-Picot Agreement launched a nine-year process—and other deals, declarations, and treaties—that created the modern Middle East states out of the Ottoman carcass. The new borders ultimately bore little resemblance to the original Sykes-Picot map, but their map is still viewed as the root cause of much that has happened ever since.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Sykes-Picot-Agreement

secret convention made during World War I between Great Britain and France, with the assent of imperial Russia, for the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire. The agreement led to the division of Turkish-held Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine into various French- and British-administered areas.

And In 1947, Britain handed the 'Palestine problem' to the United Nations, which voted for partition into Arab and Jewish states.

The year after Israel was created

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

Which led to the Nakba in 1948

https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1651256



And thus we have two traumatized populations fighting over the same land. Which turned into an asynchronous endless conflict as indeed the US uses Israel as a way to exert their control over the Middle East.

History teaches many lessons yet also keeps conflicts going. As long as each side refuses to see things from the other side, it will never end. As long as people keep thinking in terms of us and them, conflicts will keep happening.
Those seeking power know all too well how to exploit people and blind them with hatred for the others.

The only solution is learning to live together and let go of the past, without forgetting the past. Bring the leaders to justice, but don't hate the people. It's an unfortunate evolutionary trait that anger trumps empathy, a trait that is abused by politics to get people's support.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/confessions-of-a-psychological-first-responder/202304/the-politics-of-anger
https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/philosophy_theses/327/

Mobilize out of empathy, not out of anger. Anger only clouds judgement, causes tunnel vision and leads to what we're seeing unfolding right now. Netanyahu is using anger to get his way, Trump did the same, Putin no different. The shift to the right in Europe, also fueled by directing anger towards immigrants. And yes, it's very hard not to get angry with everything going on :(

Douglas Abbott Macgregor is a retired U.S. Army colonel and government official, and an author, consultant, and television commentator. He was a leader in an early tank battle in the Gulf War and was a top planner in the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. also Blames america for the war and he says US doomed Ukraine for it's own benefit.  at 8:00 he asks what the united states could have done to not have this war.

I could find you over a dozen ex-Army dudes who would call this dude a clown.

Ben Hodges, a retired United States Army officer who served as commanding general, United States Army Europe or Mark Hertling, a retired United States Army officer who served as Commanding General of United States Army Europe and the Seventh Army or the many army officers in eastern Europe are both good sources and would likely strongly disagree with this dude.

Macgregor is a tool, a political commentator now who is a far right idiot and firmly in the Trumpism camp, lots of those people love Putin and Russia because of the "strong man, anti-PC" image that Russia displays which is basically code for "Fuck gay people, fuck women's rights, fuck trans people, fuck black people, fuck everyone who is different to me!"

The nationalism that Russia displays is stuff that these types of Republican drool over, a "YEAH AMERICA! FUCK EVERYONE ELSE!" attitude. I don't know why anyone who dislikes what America does right now, would want them to go like that, it's that nationalism which makes Russia think it can just invade any country it likes with no reason. America's support of Netanyahu is a big mistake both morally and politically (Imo) but if America was like Russia they'd probably be flying alongside Israel and bombing the Palestinians with them.

"In 2014, after the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation and during a conflict with Ukraine over its eastern parts, Macgregor appeared on Russian state-owned network RT where he called for annexation of Donbas and said residents of the region "are in fact Russians, not Ukrainians, and at the same time, you have Ukrainians in the west and in the north, who are not Russians".

After Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Macgregor appeared on three Fox News programs in February and early March to speak in support of Russia's actions. Three days after the war began, he said "The battle in eastern Ukraine is really almost over," and predicted "If [Ukraine] don't surrender in the next 24 hours, I suspect Russia will ultimately annihilate them." Macgregor said he believed Russia should be allowed to seize whatever parts of Ukraine it wanted.

In his second appearance, he revised his prediction: "The first five days Russian forces I think frankly were too gentle. They've now corrected that. So, I would say another 10 days this should be completely over... I think the most heroic thing he could do right now is come to terms with reality. Neutralize Ukraine." After one of his appearances, Macgregor's comments were characterized by veteran Fox News Pentagon correspondent Jennifer Griffin as "distorting" and "appeasement" and that he was being an "apologist" for Putin.

In a fourth appearance in early March, Macgregor said a ceasefire was close as Ukrainian forces had been "grounded to bits. There's no question about that despite what we report on our mainstream media"

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

He parrots Russian propaganda stuff as the 'lovely' comments which imply either Ukrainians don't exist or the Ukraine state shouldn't exist and is rightfully Russia's so that gives Russia the free reign to go in and kill them all...Of course he also appears on RT (Russian-state owned network) and Fox News.

And FWIW, I barely watch or read mainstream media, I do look around a lot at different sources but I can mostly form my own opinions based on fact, history, law and basic morality. You don't need ANYONE to tell you that what Russia is doing is wrong. You know how some people are criticised for believing everything the media tells them? How is it any different from believing what some random Youtuber tells you without doing the research yourself? Lol.

I can see for myself that the "NATO fear" was horseshit, I can see for myself that the "nuke fear" was horseshit, I can make the opinion that even IF the fear was real, that it does not excuse the invasion of another independent country and attempted genocide of an entire population, I can see for myself, that even Russia themselves, are bragging openly about how they're killing Ukrainians and how Ukrainians don't deserve to live or that Ukraine isn't a country, these are things Russia's own state owned media have said in the past.

The West pleaded with Russia, practically begged them to not invade Ukraine, we had Macron almost on his damn hands and knees begging Putin not to go through with it, then the threats of sanctions came but none of it worked, Russia went through with it, and we tried to sanction Russia and tell them to stop, they did not listen, and so we did the only right thing left which was to supply Ukraine to give them a fighting chance.

The only way the West "screwed" Ukraine was when they told Ukraine to give up their nukes in the promise of security guarantees, we had a legal and moral obligation to protect Ukraine and yet we looked the other way when Russia took Crimea and we looked the other way at Russia's shit in the Donbas and it wasn't until Russia finally decided they want all of Ukraine until we started stepping up but even then we've been slow as fuck in supplying Ukraine with what they need and need I remind people that Russia also signed this security guarantee.

And all of this is "what America could do, what America wants, blah blah blah" What about what Ukraine wants?! Ukraine is its own country, they have their own independence, America does not control them, Ukraine was fighting back with or without America and rightfully so, when someone comes in and tries to take everything away from you and tries to slaughter your family, you're going to fight back.

If Russia invaded UK tomorrow I would not want UK to stop until every last Russian soldier on UK soil is either jailed or killed, I would want UK to take back every last bit of territory no matter how small and I wouldn't not give a shit what USA or anyone else thinks, this is our home and morally the right thing to do is to stand up against evil.

I'll say again but it frustrates me to no end that certain political commentators in the West, particularly in Western Europe/America, seem to think that every country in eastern Europe who dislikes Russia is an idiot who can't think for themselves and must be being controlled by America. It's just sheer arrogance that Americans believe they have this much power over countries, when in fact it's more simple than that, the reason why eastern Europe mostly despises Russia is because of what Russia has done to them in the past and what Russia continues to do in their own back-yard along with the constant threats.



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SvennoJ said:
zeldaring said:

Douglas Abbott Macgregor is a retired U.S. Army colonel and government official, and an author, consultant, and television commentator. He was a leader in an early tank battle in the Gulf War and was a top planner in the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. also Blames america for the war and he says US doomed Ukraine for it's own benefit.  at 8:00 he asks what the united states could have done to not have this war.


The mistake that was made was not stepping in when Russia annexed Crimea. And exactly because that went so easy for Russia, they thought they could do the same to the rest of Ukraine. See what inaction leads to?

100%

Russia has been testing the waters for years, testing the West's patience, from Chechnya to Georgia to Moldova to Ukraine, when our reactions to all of these events were as weak as they were, who can be surprised that Russia would think they could take the rest of Ukraine without the West reacting? I certainly had strong doubts that the West would do much pre-war.

So many Ukrainian lives have been lost due to the West's slowness and inaction. That's the thing you can blame on the West, that we didn't support Ukraine this significantly sooner and are still slow in certain areas at supporting Ukraine, still showing a little reluctance and fear in supporting Ukraine with certain things.

We need to stand up to evil before it's too late, stamp it out, unless we want another Nazi Germany.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 24 December 2023

Ryuu96 said:
SvennoJ said:


The mistake that was made was not stepping in when Russia annexed Crimea. And exactly because that went so easy for Russia, they thought they could do the same to the rest of Ukraine. See what inaction leads to?

100%

Russia has been testing the waters for years, testing the West's patience, from Chechnya to Georgia to Moldova to Ukraine, when our reactions to all of these events were as weak as they were, who can be surprised that Russia would think they could take the rest of Ukraine without the West reacting? I certainly had strong doubts that the West would do much pre-war.

So many Ukrainian lives have been lost due to the West's slowness and inaction. That's the thing you can blame on the West, that we didn't support Ukraine this significantly sooner and are still slow in certain areas at supporting Ukraine, still showing a little reluctance and fear in supporting Ukraine with certain things.

We need to stand up to evil before it's too late, stamp it out, unless we want another Nazi Germany.

Yep and Gaza is an extreme example what happens when leaders feel they can do anything they want

Events in Gaza stem from ‘institutionalised impunity’

The UN special rapporteur on the right to housing says events in Gaza stem from “institutionalised impunity” that encompass “war crimes”, “genocide” and “crime against humanity”.

“If the International Criminal Court does not act very soon, we need a special tribunal for Gaza and action by States,” Balakrishnan Rajagopal posted on X.

Despite the mounting evidence and ongoing atrocities, ICC Prosecutor Karim Khan has shown little interest in seriously probing Israel, according to Palestinian officials, victims and legal scholars.


Since Friday Aid has been slowing down again, Israel has stepped up bombing and is increasing ground operations

  • Two more journalists have been killed in Israeli attacks in Gaza, bringing the death toll to 103 since October 7.
  • Israeli attacks have killed 166 people in the past 24 hours, the Health Ministry in Gaza says. The death toll now stands at 20,424.
  • Hezbollah and Israeli forces attack each other near the border.
  • A number of settlements in Galilee evacuated due to warnings of antitank missiles being launched from Lebanon.
  • Israeli army says 14 soldiers killed in Gaza fighting since Friday.

Netanyahu keeps telling the US isn't influencing his decisions while the US keeps saying they're trying to temper Israel's response

Israel's military decisions are not influenced by other countries: Decisions involving Israel's military operations are based on its own assessments and not influenced by other countries, Netanyahu said Sunday, following claims that he was dissuaded from launching a strike against Hezbollah on the advice of US President Joe Biden.

Basically they're just covering for each other. Biden keeping up the distractions and pretending things will slow down, while Netanyahu provides cover for the US so they can keep the atrocities going.

Delivery of aid in Gaza faces difficulties

The amount of aid arriving is still small, despite the resolution by the UN Security Council to allow an increased amount of humanitarian aid into Gaza.

However, what we’re seeing is a surge in air attacks, systematic killing and displacement in the enclave.

The aid is not going to be enough as long as more and more people get displaced. As people leave their homes and all their belongings behind, it will further place a burden on people who are working to coordinate the delivery of humanitarian aid.

Logistically, it is becoming impossible to deliver aid considering the entire Gaza Strip has been effectively divided.



Aid can only enter through Rafah and some from Karem Shalom now, south east corner only. And what can enter is less than 10% of what's needed.

Last edited by SvennoJ - on 24 December 2023

ye

Ryuu96 said:
zeldaring said:

Douglas Abbott Macgregor is a retired U.S. Army colonel and government official, and an author, consultant, and television commentator. He was a leader in an early tank battle in the Gulf War and was a top planner in the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. also Blames america for the war and he says US doomed Ukraine for it's own benefit.  at 8:00 he asks what the united states could have done to not have this war.

I could find you over a dozen ex-Army dudes who would call this dude a clown.

Ben Hodges, a retired United States Army officer who served as commanding general, United States Army Europe or Mark Hertling, a retired United States Army officer who served as Commanding General of United States Army Europe and the Seventh Army or the many army officers in eastern Europe are both good sources and would likely strongly disagree with this dude.

Macgregor is a tool, a political commentator now who is a far right idiot and firmly in the Trumpism camp, lots of those people love Putin and Russia because of the "strong man, anti-PC" image that Russia displays which is basically code for "Fuck gay people, fuck women's rights, fuck trans people, fuck black people, fuck everyone who is different to me!"

The nationalism that Russia displays is stuff that these types of Republican drool over, a "YEAH AMERICA! FUCK EVERYONE ELSE!" attitude. I don't know why anyone who dislikes what America does right now, would want them to go like that, it's that nationalism which makes Russia think it can just invade any country it likes with no reason. America's support of Netanyahu is a big mistake both morally and politically (Imo) but if America was like Russia they'd probably be flying alongside Israel and bombing the Palestinians with them.

"In 2014, after the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation and during a conflict with Ukraine over its eastern parts, Macgregor appeared on Russian state-owned network RT where he called for annexation of Donbas and said residents of the region "are in fact Russians, not Ukrainians, and at the same time, you have Ukrainians in the west and in the north, who are not Russians".

After Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Macgregor appeared on three Fox News programs in February and early March to speak in support of Russia's actions. Three days after the war began, he said "The battle in eastern Ukraine is really almost over," and predicted "If [Ukraine] don't surrender in the next 24 hours, I suspect Russia will ultimately annihilate them." Macgregor said he believed Russia should be allowed to seize whatever parts of Ukraine it wanted.

In his second appearance, he revised his prediction: "The first five days Russian forces I think frankly were too gentle. They've now corrected that. So, I would say another 10 days this should be completely over... I think the most heroic thing he could do right now is come to terms with reality. Neutralize Ukraine." After one of his appearances, Macgregor's comments were characterized by veteran Fox News Pentagon correspondent Jennifer Griffin as "distorting" and "appeasement" and that he was being an "apologist" for Putin.

In a fourth appearance in early March, Macgregor said a ceasefire was close as Ukrainian forces had been "grounded to bits. There's no question about that despite what we report on our mainstream media"

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

He parrots Russian propaganda stuff as the 'lovely' comments which imply either Ukrainians don't exist or the Ukraine state shouldn't exist and is rightfully Russia's so that gives Russia the free reign to go in and kill them all...Of course he also appears on RT (Russian-state owned network) and Fox News.

And FWIW, I barely watch or read mainstream media, I do look around a lot at different sources but I can mostly form my own opinions based on fact, history, law and basic morality. You don't need ANYONE to tell you that what Russia is doing is wrong. You know how some people are criticised for believing everything the media tells them? How is it any different from believing what some random Youtuber tells you without doing the research yourself? Lol.

I can see for myself that the "NATO fear" was horseshit, I can see for myself that the "nuke fear" was horseshit, I can make the opinion that even IF the fear was real, that it does not excuse the invasion of another independent country and attempted genocide of an entire population, I can see for myself, that even Russia themselves, are bragging openly about how they're killing Ukrainians and how Ukrainians don't deserve to live or that Ukraine isn't a country, these are things Russia's own state owned media have said in the past.

The West pleaded with Russia, practically begged them to not invade Ukraine, we had Macron almost on his damn hands and knees begging Putin not to go through with it, then the threats of sanctions came but none of it worked, Russia went through with it, and we tried to sanction Russia and tell them to stop, they did not listen, and so we did the only right thing left which was to supply Ukraine to give them a fighting chance.

The only way the West "screwed" Ukraine was when they told Ukraine to give up their nukes in the promise of security guarantees, we had a legal and moral obligation to protect Ukraine and yet we looked the other way when Russia took Crimea and we looked the other way at Russia's shit in the Donbas and it wasn't until Russia finally decided they want all of Ukraine until we started stepping up but even then we've been slow as fuck in supplying Ukraine with what they need and need I remind people that Russia also signed this security guarantee.

And all of this is "what America could do, what America wants, blah blah blah" What about what Ukraine wants?! Ukraine is its own country, they have their own independence, America does not control them, Ukraine was fighting back with or without America and rightfully so, when someone comes in and tries to take everything away from you and tries to slaughter your family, you're going to fight back.

If Russia invaded UK tomorrow I would not want UK to stop until every last Russian soldier on UK soil is either jailed or killed, I would want UK to take back every last bit of territory no matter how small and I wouldn't not give a shit what USA or anyone else thinks, this is our home and morally the right thing to do is to stand up against evil.

I'll say again but it frustrates me to no end that certain political commentators in the West, particularly in Western Europe/America, seem to think that every country in eastern Europe who dislikes Russia is an idiot who can't think for themselves and must be being controlled by America. It's just sheer arrogance that Americans believe they have this much power over countries, when in fact it's more simple than that, the reason why eastern Europe mostly despises Russia is because of what Russia has done to them in the past and what Russia continues to do in their own back-yard along with the constant threats.

The main guys i watch for the gaza war that mention Ukraine are norman finkelstein, John Mearsheimer, scott ritter and macregor they all seem pro russia but it's hard to be  pro west with how they are supporting genocide of children they have lost all creditability to anyone that actually  sees muslims as human beings. the fact that US is intent on funding the Ukraine war when they really don't have any moral compass makes me think that the intent was to attack Russia. 



zeldaring said:

ye

The main guys i watch for the gaza war that mention Ukraine are norman finkelstein, John Mearsheimer, scott ritter and macregor they all seem pro russia but it's hard to be  pro west with how they are supporting genocide of children they have lost all creditability to anyone that actually  sees muslims as human beings. the fact that US is intent on funding the Ukraine war when they really don't have any moral compass makes me think that the intent was to attack Russia. 

Try Owen Jones, Democracy Now, The Majority Report.

I follow CNN live feed along side Al Jazeera's live feed, comparing the two and googling different iterations of the same headlines.
The Guardian has good reporting as well, and of course there are all the official channels UN, WHO, MSF, Unicef, Amnesty International, UNWRA and so on. Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor also keeps good track of what's going on.

One thing this war doesn't suffer from is global attention, there are tons of sources to look to before heading to you tube.


You don't need to be pro/anti West/East, neither have any morals in their policies and serve their own interests first.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/dueling-russia-us-resolutions-israel-hamas-war-fail/story?id=104303616

Russia used its veto to block UN resolutions regarding Israel-Hamas war just as the US did. Russia doesn't want to condemn Hamas and is using the situation to get the focus away from Ukraine and its working. US congress has now delayed further funding for aid to Ukraine.

And sure, the US isn't just helping Ukraine out of empathy or doing the right thing. It is also to weaken Russia. And for good reason, a maniacal leader sending hundreds of thousands of drafted troops to their death, trying to wipe Ukraine off the map for his legacy.

However the intent was not to attack Russia. The intent has always been to deter Russia from invading sovereign countries at will. Actually the US is restricting the use of its weapons in the Ukraine war unlike its military aid to Israel.


If global super powers actually had some morals they would have stepped in in the (still ongoing) Rohingya genocide.

And don't expect anything from China which is currently practicing its own genocide, Uyghur genocide in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region.

It's a sad world we live in
https://www.genocidewatch.com/countries-at-risk

Global powers don't see people as human beings period, their own citizens included.



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SvennoJ said:
zeldaring said:

ye

The main guys i watch for the gaza war that mention Ukraine are norman finkelstein, John Mearsheimer, scott ritter and macregor they all seem pro russia but it's hard to be  pro west with how they are supporting genocide of children they have lost all creditability to anyone that actually  sees muslims as human beings. the fact that US is intent on funding the Ukraine war when they really don't have any moral compass makes me think that the intent was to attack Russia. 

Try Owen Jones, Democracy Now, The Majority Report.

I follow CNN live feed along side Al Jazeera's live feed, comparing the two and googling different iterations of the same headlines.
The Guardian has good reporting as well, and of course there are all the official channels UN, WHO, MSF, Unicef, Amnesty International, UNWRA and so on. Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor also keeps good track of what's going on.

One thing this war doesn't suffer from is global attention, there are tons of sources to look to before heading to you tube.


You don't need to be pro/anti West/East, neither have any morals in their policies and serve their own interests first.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/dueling-russia-us-resolutions-israel-hamas-war-fail/story?id=104303616

Russia used its veto to block UN resolutions regarding Israel-Hamas war just as the US did. Russia doesn't want to condemn Hamas and is using the situation to get the focus away from Ukraine and its working. US congress has now delayed further funding for aid to Ukraine.

And sure, the US isn't just helping Ukraine out of empathy or doing the right thing. It is also to weaken Russia. And for good reason, a maniacal leader sending hundreds of thousands of drafted troops to their death, trying to wipe Ukraine off the map for his legacy.

However the intent was not to attack Russia. The intent has always been to deter Russia from invading sovereign countries at will. Actually the US is restricting the use of its weapons in the Ukraine war unlike its military aid to Israel.


If global super powers actually had some morals they would have stepped in in the (still ongoing) Rohingya genocide.

And don't expect anything from China which is currently practicing its own genocide, Uyghur genocide in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region.

It's a sad world we live in
https://www.genocidewatch.com/countries-at-risk

Global powers don't see people as human beings period, their own citizens included.

why would russia trust what the US intent was since they invade and bully so many countries no one has started more wars and invaded then the US. John Mearsheimer Said 6 years ago if US pushes the Ukraine to Nato it would be the destruction of Ukraine. you are right all super powers are evil.

Last edited by zeldaring - on 24 December 2023

zeldaring said:

ye

Ryuu96 said:

-Snip-

The main guys i watch for the gaza war that mention Ukraine are norman finkelstein, John Mearsheimer, scott ritter and macregor they all seem pro russia but it's hard to be  pro west with how they are supporting genocide of children they have lost all creditability to anyone that actually  sees muslims as human beings. the fact that US is intent on funding the Ukraine war when they really don't have any moral compass makes me think that the intent was to attack Russia. 

John Mearsheimer's latest book straight up thanked a Russian-based think tank which provided funding for his research, a think tank which is described as being a "Putin-approved" organisation, Lol. John Mearsheimer is the classic example of one of those hypocritical people I was talking about, those who criticise America's imperialism but make excuses for Russia's.

Fine, don't be pro-west but instead be pro-Ukraine. Once again, Ukraine is its own independent country, which makes its own choices and is being illegally invaded by a much more powerful country in an attempted land-grab and genocide but Russia uses excuses such as NATO in order to rile up the nationalistic domestic audience.

It's easier to sell to an audience that "we're invading Ukraine because NATO/the West wants us dead! Everyone is against us! Glory to Russia!" over the actual truth which is "we're invading Ukraine and sending you all to your deaths because I want a land grab, more resources and to stamp my name in the history books as restoring Russia to its former glory"

And sure, I can agree that the reason why USA is helping Ukraine is likely more to do with benefitting themselves over any morality concerns but I honestly couldn't care less why they are doing it, as long as they are doing it, because ultimately helping Ukraine is the right thing to do, no matter the motive behind it. Yes, USA probably wants Russia weakened and removed from the board as a threat and ultimately pushed away from Europe.

And I would want to see that too, Russia is ran by an awful leader but not just Putin, the whole of Russia's political system is rotten to the core, it's the same Russia as it was a 100 years ago, they still think they can take what they want, do what they want, hurt whoever they want and they don't try to even hide the fact that they would love nothing more than to see Europe in flames, our allies and millions of innocent people.

Same way I want us to get away from Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc. I want Europe to never return to having to rely on Russia again.

I do not believe Russia will change in my lifetime, it will require a total and utter defeat, it took Japan and Germany being utterly crushed and occupied by allied forces post-war to change their society around, something like that cannot happen in 2023 because everyone has nukes now, and so in order for Russia to change it will have to be a slow process that comes from the inside.

Russia is acting today like Nazi Germany.

Even still, America's intent was not to attack Russia and I don't get why you keep repeating that, I don't understand what you even mean, attack Russia how? Attack Russia through Ukraine? Ukraine was on paper massively weaker than Russia, American politicians and military experts all believed that Ukraine would lose within a week and Kyiv would be taken.

The President of the United States even offered to get Zelenskyy out of the country because they believed Kyiv was going to fall.

America full well believed at the beginning that Ukraine would lose and it would be a quick loss so how does it make sense that America was planning on attacking Russia through Ukraine? And again, Ukraine is an independent country, it does what it wants, America does not tell it what to do, if America stopped supporting Ukraine tomorrow, Ukraine will continue to fight.

They're fighting for their land, for their homes, for their families, for their country, for their lives.

If America wanted to attack Russia directly then what are they waiting for? Lol. Nobody wants to pick a fight with a nuclear capable country though. Even in their attempts to help Ukraine, they've enforced restrictions onto Ukraine and refused to give Ukraine certain weaponry or took months of deliberations to do so, it was the UK which had to break the taboo on sending MBTs and long-range missiles before anyone else could.

Even still, America refuses to send Ukraine some things, such as the very best version of ATACMS missile, Germany refuses to send Taurus over fears that Ukraine could use it to destroy the Kerch Bridge. The West shows fear still time and time again in supplying Ukraine with what it needs. Even before the war, the West (including America) consistently ignored Russia's horrific acts in order to try peace (and money).

The West simply wants Russia to stop invading everyone, especially on their backdoor and even more so because Russia keeps using migrants as a weapon against Europe to apply pressure. I'd in fact argue that many in the West are hoping still that Putin sees sense, pulls his troops out and I would not be surprised (but I would be pissed off) if everyone just went back to business as usual with Russia.

The West begged Russia not to go through with this.

Imo, I also believe the West is afraid of a quick collapse of Russia internally and would rather it happened slowly or not at all.

Ukraine has even in the past been told that they aren't allowed to use Western equipment on Russian soil, they can't attack Russian land using Western equipment, even if it's a viable military target, it is a restriction which I find bullshit. They also have other restrictions which I agree with, such as Ukraine is not allowed to use American cluster munitions on cities (Ukrainian cities which are Russian held currently).

Israel has none of these restrictions it seems.



Ryuu96 said:
zeldaring said:

ye

The main guys i watch for the gaza war that mention Ukraine are norman finkelstein, John Mearsheimer, scott ritter and macregor they all seem pro russia but it's hard to be  pro west with how they are supporting genocide of children they have lost all creditability to anyone that actually  sees muslims as human beings. the fact that US is intent on funding the Ukraine war when they really don't have any moral compass makes me think that the intent was to attack Russia. 

John Mearsheimer's latest book straight up thanked a Russian-based think tank which provided funding for his research, a think tank which is described as being a "Putin-approved" organisation, Lol. John Mearsheimer is the classic example of one of those hypocritical people I was talking about, those who criticise America's imperialism but make excuses for Russia's.

Fine, don't be pro-west but instead be pro-Ukraine. Once again, Ukraine is its own independent country, which makes its own choices and is being illegally invaded by a much more powerful country in an attempted land-grab and genocide but Russia uses excuses such as NATO in order to rile up the nationalistic domestic audience.

It's easier to sell to an audience that "we're invading Ukraine because NATO/the West wants us dead! Everyone is against us! Glory to Russia!" over the actual truth which is "we're invading Ukraine and sending you all to your deaths because I want a land grab, more resources and to stamp my name in the history books as restoring Russia to its former glory"

And sure, I can agree that the reason why USA is helping Ukraine is likely more to do with benefitting themselves over any morality concerns but I honestly couldn't care less why they are doing it, as long as they are doing it, because ultimately helping Ukraine is the right thing to do, no matter the motive behind it. Yes, USA probably wants Russia weakened and removed from the board as a threat and ultimately pushed away from Europe.

And I would want to see that too, Russia is ran by an awful leader but not just Putin, the whole of Russia's political system is rotten to the core, it's the same Russia as it was a 100 years ago, they still think they can take what they want, do what they want, hurt whoever they want and they don't try to even hide the fact that they would love nothing more than to see Europe in flames, our allies and millions of innocent people.

Same way I want us to get away from Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc. I want Europe to never return to having to rely on Russia again.

I do not believe Russia will change in my lifetime, it will require a total and utter defeat, it took Japan and Germany being utterly crushed and occupied by allied forces post-war to change their society around, something like that cannot happen in 2023 because everyone has nukes now, and so in order for Russia to change it will have to be a slow process that comes from the inside.

Russia is acting today like Nazi Germany.

Even still, America's intent was not to attack Russia and I don't get why you keep repeating that, I don't understand what you even mean, attack Russia how? Attack Russia through Ukraine? Ukraine was on paper massively weaker than Russia, American politicians and military experts all believed that Ukraine would lose within a week and Kyiv would be taken.

The President of the United States even offered to get Zelenskyy out of the country because they believed Kyiv was going to fall.

America full well believed at the beginning that Ukraine would lose and it would be a quick loss so how does it make sense that America was planning on attacking Russia through Ukraine? And again, Ukraine is an independent country, it does what it wants, America does not tell it what to do, if America stopped supporting Ukraine tomorrow, Ukraine will continue to fight.

They're fighting for their land, for their homes, for their families, for their country, for their lives.

If America wanted to attack Russia directly then what are they waiting for? Lol. Nobody wants to pick a fight with a nuclear capable country though. Even in their attempts to help Ukraine, they've enforced restrictions onto Ukraine and refused to give Ukraine certain weaponry or took months of deliberations to do so, it was the UK which had to break the taboo on sending MBTs and long-range missiles before anyone else could.

Even still, America refuses to send Ukraine some things, such as the very best version of ATACMS missile, Germany refuses to send Taurus over fears that Ukraine could use it to destroy the Kerch Bridge. The West shows fear still time and time again in supplying Ukraine with what it needs. Even before the war, the West (including America) consistently ignored Russia's horrific acts in order to try peace (and money).

The West simply wants Russia to stop invading everyone, especially on their backdoor and even more so because Russia keeps using migrants as a weapon against Europe to apply pressure. I'd in fact argue that many in the West are hoping still that Putin sees sense, pulls his troops out and I would not be surprised (but I would be pissed off) if everyone just went back to business as usual with Russia.

The West begged Russia not to go through with this.

Imo, I also believe the West is afraid of a quick collapse of Russia internally and would rather it happened slowly or not at all.

Ukraine has even in the past been told that they aren't allowed to use Western equipment on Russian soil, they can't attack Russian land using Western equipment, even if it's a viable military target, it is a restriction which I find bullshit. They also have other restrictions which I agree with, such as Ukraine is not allowed to use American cluster munitions on cities (Ukrainian cities which are Russian held currently).

Israel has none of these restrictions it seems.

I'm always anti war like if Palestine could just get some basic human rights with the illegal settlements and blockade removed is better then 100k dead in my book, so if Ukraine could have just said no to nato and if that would have stopped the invasion much better then 800k people losing there lives cause those people don't get a second chance. Palestinians have no choice the intent is clear they want them expelled.



zeldaring said:
SvennoJ said:

Try Owen Jones, Democracy Now, The Majority Report.

I follow CNN live feed along side Al Jazeera's live feed, comparing the two and googling different iterations of the same headlines.
The Guardian has good reporting as well, and of course there are all the official channels UN, WHO, MSF, Unicef, Amnesty International, UNWRA and so on. Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor also keeps good track of what's going on.

One thing this war doesn't suffer from is global attention, there are tons of sources to look to before heading to you tube.


You don't need to be pro/anti West/East, neither have any morals in their policies and serve their own interests first.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/dueling-russia-us-resolutions-israel-hamas-war-fail/story?id=104303616

Russia used its veto to block UN resolutions regarding Israel-Hamas war just as the US did. Russia doesn't want to condemn Hamas and is using the situation to get the focus away from Ukraine and its working. US congress has now delayed further funding for aid to Ukraine.

And sure, the US isn't just helping Ukraine out of empathy or doing the right thing. It is also to weaken Russia. And for good reason, a maniacal leader sending hundreds of thousands of drafted troops to their death, trying to wipe Ukraine off the map for his legacy.

However the intent was not to attack Russia. The intent has always been to deter Russia from invading sovereign countries at will. Actually the US is restricting the use of its weapons in the Ukraine war unlike its military aid to Israel.


If global super powers actually had some morals they would have stepped in in the (still ongoing) Rohingya genocide.

And don't expect anything from China which is currently practicing its own genocide, Uyghur genocide in Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region.

It's a sad world we live in
https://www.genocidewatch.com/countries-at-risk

Global powers don't see people as human beings period, their own citizens included.

why would russia trust what the US intent was since they invade and bully so many countries no one has started more wars and invaded then the US. John Mearsheimer Said 6 years ago if US pushes the Ukraine to Nato it would be the destruction of Ukraine. you are right all super powers are evil.

Russia themselves don't even believe that America was going to attack them, c'mon now. It's straight up Russian propaganda fed to the domestic audience, Lol. Russia contradicts itself time and time again on the reasons (which they've gave over a dozen different ones) why they invaded Ukraine. It has ranged from "Ukraine has Nazis" to "Ukraine was going to attack us first" to "Ukraine was about to join NATO" to "Ukraine was making nukes and/or biological weapons" to "Ukraine doesn't technically exist/we never legally gave Ukraine up, therefore it's ours"

Russia has a long history of brutality, from allying themselves with Nazi Germany (until it no longer benefited them) to Soviet-Afghan War to the First Chechen War, to the Second Chechen, to illegally and forcefully stealing Crimea from Ukraine, to the horrific shit which Russia does in Syria in aid of Assad and the horrific shit which Wagner gets up to in African countries with Russia's full backing. To aiding, encouraging separatists in Abkhazia, South Ossetia to breakaway from Georgia and Transnistria to breakaway from Moldova with the aid of Russia to eventually invading the whole of Ukraine and trying to genocide them.

We even had Russian military officers with writing on their graves stating they were involved in the Donbas war...Despite Russia claiming to not be involved but now Russia doesn't seem to care about keeping that lie up. They cause a little bit of infighting in a country and then when the Russian backed group ask for "help" Russia sends in the "help" and pretends to be "peacemaker" until Russia eventually decides it wants to rest of the land, as it did with Chechnya, Ukraine and as it will do with Georgia and Moldova next if they defeat Ukraine.

The USA does not control NATO, once again we're seeing American arrogance on display, America cannot even convince NATO countries to help them out in the Red Sea. Consistently does European countries go against America's wishes because we're all independent countries at the end of the day with our own thoughts. It was Germany (and I think a couple others) who was blocking Ukraine from being able to join NATO in the first place and once again, Ukraine was absolutely NOWHERE near to joining NATO, it's a process which takes years.

Every single country in NATO has to approve Ukraine joining as well, it only takes one no out of 31 to block Ukraine from being able to join, that is 31 countries with equal say as each other and at the end of the day, nobody was letting Ukraine join as long as they were in an active conflict, a conflict which was created thanks to Russia.



zeldaring said:
Ryuu96 said:

John Mearsheimer's latest book straight up thanked a Russian-based think tank which provided funding for his research, a think tank which is described as being a "Putin-approved" organisation, Lol. John Mearsheimer is the classic example of one of those hypocritical people I was talking about, those who criticise America's imperialism but make excuses for Russia's.

Fine, don't be pro-west but instead be pro-Ukraine. Once again, Ukraine is its own independent country, which makes its own choices and is being illegally invaded by a much more powerful country in an attempted land-grab and genocide but Russia uses excuses such as NATO in order to rile up the nationalistic domestic audience.

It's easier to sell to an audience that "we're invading Ukraine because NATO/the West wants us dead! Everyone is against us! Glory to Russia!" over the actual truth which is "we're invading Ukraine and sending you all to your deaths because I want a land grab, more resources and to stamp my name in the history books as restoring Russia to its former glory"

And sure, I can agree that the reason why USA is helping Ukraine is likely more to do with benefitting themselves over any morality concerns but I honestly couldn't care less why they are doing it, as long as they are doing it, because ultimately helping Ukraine is the right thing to do, no matter the motive behind it. Yes, USA probably wants Russia weakened and removed from the board as a threat and ultimately pushed away from Europe.

And I would want to see that too, Russia is ran by an awful leader but not just Putin, the whole of Russia's political system is rotten to the core, it's the same Russia as it was a 100 years ago, they still think they can take what they want, do what they want, hurt whoever they want and they don't try to even hide the fact that they would love nothing more than to see Europe in flames, our allies and millions of innocent people.

Same way I want us to get away from Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc. I want Europe to never return to having to rely on Russia again.

I do not believe Russia will change in my lifetime, it will require a total and utter defeat, it took Japan and Germany being utterly crushed and occupied by allied forces post-war to change their society around, something like that cannot happen in 2023 because everyone has nukes now, and so in order for Russia to change it will have to be a slow process that comes from the inside.

Russia is acting today like Nazi Germany.

Even still, America's intent was not to attack Russia and I don't get why you keep repeating that, I don't understand what you even mean, attack Russia how? Attack Russia through Ukraine? Ukraine was on paper massively weaker than Russia, American politicians and military experts all believed that Ukraine would lose within a week and Kyiv would be taken.

The President of the United States even offered to get Zelenskyy out of the country because they believed Kyiv was going to fall.

America full well believed at the beginning that Ukraine would lose and it would be a quick loss so how does it make sense that America was planning on attacking Russia through Ukraine? And again, Ukraine is an independent country, it does what it wants, America does not tell it what to do, if America stopped supporting Ukraine tomorrow, Ukraine will continue to fight.

They're fighting for their land, for their homes, for their families, for their country, for their lives.

If America wanted to attack Russia directly then what are they waiting for? Lol. Nobody wants to pick a fight with a nuclear capable country though. Even in their attempts to help Ukraine, they've enforced restrictions onto Ukraine and refused to give Ukraine certain weaponry or took months of deliberations to do so, it was the UK which had to break the taboo on sending MBTs and long-range missiles before anyone else could.

Even still, America refuses to send Ukraine some things, such as the very best version of ATACMS missile, Germany refuses to send Taurus over fears that Ukraine could use it to destroy the Kerch Bridge. The West shows fear still time and time again in supplying Ukraine with what it needs. Even before the war, the West (including America) consistently ignored Russia's horrific acts in order to try peace (and money).

The West simply wants Russia to stop invading everyone, especially on their backdoor and even more so because Russia keeps using migrants as a weapon against Europe to apply pressure. I'd in fact argue that many in the West are hoping still that Putin sees sense, pulls his troops out and I would not be surprised (but I would be pissed off) if everyone just went back to business as usual with Russia.

The West begged Russia not to go through with this.

Imo, I also believe the West is afraid of a quick collapse of Russia internally and would rather it happened slowly or not at all.

Ukraine has even in the past been told that they aren't allowed to use Western equipment on Russian soil, they can't attack Russian land using Western equipment, even if it's a viable military target, it is a restriction which I find bullshit. They also have other restrictions which I agree with, such as Ukraine is not allowed to use American cluster munitions on cities (Ukrainian cities which are Russian held currently).

Israel has none of these restrictions it seems.

I'm always anti war like if Palestine could just get some basic human rights with the illegal settlements and blockade removed is better then 100k dead in my book, so if Ukraine could have just said no to nato and if that would have stopped the invasion much better then 800k people losing there lives cause those people don't get a second chance. Palestinians have no choice the intent is clear they want them expelled.

This some form of victim blaming? Lol.

How about Russia keeps its nose out of other countries business and stops trying to tell them what they can or cannot do? For the 5000th time, Ukraine is an independent country and can join whatever damn organisation it likes, we don't go invading countries because they're joining Russia's CSTO do we? If Ukraine wanted to join NATO then they see value in it and they only wanted to join NATO because Russia kept being a dickhead to them and causing problems in their country from Crimea to Donbas.

It was NEVER about NATO, Russia was invading Ukraine with or without NATO. NATO is for the 1000th time, a defensive organisation, they only attack if they are attacked and the reason so many of eastern Europe is in it is because Russia is such a massive dickhead to everyone around it and constantly threatening everyone, if everyone near Russia wants to join NATO, Russia only has itself to blame and to that I say, get over it and stop being such a baby.

Ukraine will now more than ever want to join NATO and that is Russia's fault. But sure, creating a permanent enemy who wants nothing more than to see you dead now on your border is totally better than them instead not fighting with Russia but being in a defensive only treaty with a bunch of other countries, a galaxy brain move from Russia if we buy that this was about NATO. Russia has nothing to fear, unless it attacks a NATO country. Nobody is starting a fight with a nuclear capable country and Russia knows that.

This. Was. Never. About. NATO.

Finnish border ‘pretty empty’ of Russian troops, says Helsinki

Yah, a country so scared of NATO it pulls its troops away from NATO borders.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 24 December 2023