By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sales Discussion - Microsoft gives market share against PlayStation

chakkra said:
CGI-Quality said:

Err.. you said a lot of things

  • FFXVI is half of their games for the near future (you do not know what is coming out)
  • The only reason Playstation is getting FFXVI and FFVIIRE as exclusives is because MS never made a better offer to SE (A. that's Microsoft's problem, and B. if it were that simple, they certainly would have tried)

Could also be that Square knows where the majority of those sales will come from and FFXVI being exclusive to Xbox is a massive risk when they don't have the units sold that Sony does (particularly in EU/JP where it is currently a slaughter). 

So, you want the deal to get blocked so they can take $70B and go on an exclusive buying spree (my error for seeing that as more pub purchases). Why wouldn't you prefer they take that money and invest in their own studios? This is what I was getting at. That should be the first line of defense and they already have plenty of studios. Why do you think Nintendo and Sony have the brand power and recognition worldwide that they do? No doubt the latter makes more exclusive deals than the former (who made many against SEGA during its 80s/90s reign), but they are no longer mainly recognized for 3rd party properties (Devil May Cry, FF, Metal Gear, Tekken, etc). That's how you nurture a brand. 3rd party deals will always happen — that's the nature of the business. But, you need to come correct with your own hand or risk being left behind and that is the situation they are in.

Game Pass can only do so much, and since a 30+% decline this early in a gen is not good, I'd prefer they stepped their game up with many of their own properties. 

Really? Are we seriously suggesting that now? What's next? Are you gonna tell me that the reason MS can't even mention Ghostwire Tokyo in a sentence is because Bethesda just thought that it would sell better on Playstation?

I have no idea what you are barking about here. A Japanese publisher going with Sony (on Nintendo) over Microsoft is an easy concept to grasp, regardless of how much green is on the table. It was a logical suggestion.

But hey, I'm not blaming Sony, I know that (like you keep repeating) it is all business. I mean, if it hadn't been for that Square Enyx partnership, PS gamers whould have had to wait a bit between GOW and.. Spiderman 2? So yeah, I can totally see how paying for exclusivity can fill the gaps.

Them waiting between those two games would hardly be a reason to worry. It's not like they go long periods with dry spells very often. This continues to ignore that they haven't revealed their entire hand for 2023 yet. 

And it is not about what I would prefer, it is about what would be the more realistic scenario; and if this deal is blocked I think they will have only 5 options left:

1) Make small adquisitions
2) Invest on their own studios
3) Hire more studios as 2nd parties
4) Invest more heavily into putting 3rd party releases into GP day one
5) Invest more heavily into 3rd party exclusives

Now, I don't think you need to be a genius to realize that $70b would be enough to do all five of those things; and I also think that you don't need to be a genius to realize that investing in their own studios would be the slowest option of them all. I mean, Sony just bought Bungie and Housemarquee for a reason (and Insomniac not too long ago).

Bungie is the only oddball and they were acquired to aid with Live games. Destiny is remaining multiplat, so they have absolutely no correlation to Housemarque and Insomniac whatsoever. This is particularly because the latter two mainly created games for PlayStation. Neither purchase was out of left field (unlike Activision, Bungie, or Zenimax).

So yeah, I would like for this to get blocked just so MS gets forced to focus on these other options instead.

Bold.

In regards to it getting blocked ( speaking of folks repeating themselves ), you're not going to get that wish. It isn't going to be. Concessions will be made, but things will go through. Nothing is stopping Microsoft from doing the very things you asked for regardless. 

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 01 March 2023

                                                                                                                                                           

Around the Network
CGI-Quality said:
chakkra said:

Really? Are we seriously suggesting that now? What's next? Are you gonna tell me that the reason MS can't even mention Ghostwire Tokyo in a sentence is because Bethesda just thought that it would sell better on Playstation?

I have no idea what you are barking about here. A Japanese publisher going with Sony (on Nintendo) over Microsoft is an easy concept to grasp, regardless of how much green is on the table. It was a logical suggestion.

But hey, I'm not blaming Sony, I know that (like you keep repeating) it is all business. I mean, if it hadn't been for that Square Enyx partnership, PS gamers whould have had to wait a bit between GOW and.. Spiderman 2? So yeah, I can totally see how paying for exclusivity can fill the gaps.

Them waiting between those two games would hardly be a reason to worry. It's not like they go long periods with dry spells very often. This continues to ignore that they haven't revealed their entire hand for 2023 yet. 

And it is not about what I would prefer, it is about what would be the more realistic scenario; and if this deal is blocked I think they will have only 5 options left:

1) Make small adquisitions
2) Invest on their own studios
3) Hire more studios as 2nd parties
4) Invest more heavily into putting 3rd party releases into GP day one
5) Invest more heavily into 3rd party exclusives

Now, I don't think you need to be a genius to realize that $70b would be enough to do all five of those things; and I also think that you don't need to be a genius to realize that investing in their own studios would be the slowest option of them all. I mean, Sony just bought Bungie and Housemarquee for a reason (and Insomniac not too long ago).

Bungie is the only oddball and they were acquired to aid with Live games. Destiny is remaining multiplat, so they have absolutely no correlation to Housemarque and Insomniac whatsoever. This is particularly because the latter two mainly created games for PlayStation. Neither purchase was out of left field (unlike Activision, Bungie, or Zenimax).

So yeah, I would like for this to get blocked just so MS gets forced to focus on these other options instead.

Bold.

In regards to it getting blocked ( speaking of folks repeating themselves ), you're not going to get that wish. It isn't going to be. Concessions will be made, but things will go through. Nothing is stopping Microsoft from doing the very things you asked for regardless. 

I fail to see what is the point you are trying to make here. Sony bought independent studios instead of building them from scratch. Whatever their reasonings to do it.. whatever process they used to do it.. at the end of the day, Sony bought independent studios instead of building them from scratch. These studios were free to work with any other publishers (and they literally did that before, including with Microsoft) now they are not.



chakkra said:
CGI-Quality said:

Bold.

In regards to it getting blocked ( speaking of folks repeating themselves ), you're not going to get that wish. It isn't going to be. Concessions will be made, but things will go through. Nothing is stopping Microsoft from doing the very things you asked for regardless. 

I fail to see what is the point you are trying to make here. Sony bought independent studios instead of building them from scratch. Whatever their reasonings to do it.. whatever process they used to do it.. at the end of the day, Sony bought independent studios instead of building them from scratch. These studios were free to work with any other publishers (and they literally did that before, including with Microsoft) now they are not.

The Bungie agreement meant they remained independent despite being a subsidiary of SIE. This isn't the case for either Housemarque nor Insomniac. Of course they were all bought for a reason, just not the same reason. Bungie will continue to self publish its own games, meaning what they make will appear on other platforms (i.e. working with other publishers, namely console makers).

Besides, who said that every studio needed to be built from scratch? I certainly didn't and don't see anyone else who did. 

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 02 March 2023

                                                                                                                                                           

I thought we were past the point where we compare Activision+Blizzard to Insomniac



Machiavellian said:
EpicRandy said:

Would not say they have no say but yes I should have said MS not investors, Investors may have no direct say over MS way to spend but MS does over Xbox and I do not believe that if this deal fails the money return directly in Xbox pocket but in MS's one, which Xbox will then need to fight to secure back.
What I described in my previous post is only under the hypothesis that Xbox does secure it.

This deal isn't about Xbox but MS as a business.  Meaning that acquisition on this scale is a company wide decision that does not pull that money from the Xbox division but a totally different pool.  So no, if this deal does not go through it does not mean that money just sits there for Phil to grab.  It goes back to MS pool of cash they set aside for acquisitions, it could be something in gaming or something totally non gaming related.

So we are literally saying the same thing here. I just explored the possibility Xbox successfully plead for the investment to be made otherwise and my hypothetical scenario a few post back was the same investment over 10years so probably easier for Xbox to secure this way.

Machiavellian said:
EpicRandy said:

Every action MS take will end up impacting Sony but yeah if you look only short term they won't be significant.

Not really.  Nothing MS has done so far even purchasing Bethesda, putting Starfield and Redfall exclusive or Even making GP a great gaming service has really slowed Sony down one bit.  What I am talking about is significant impact that will make all of Sony execs flinch.  Even this deal landing doesn't really effect Sony in the short term and MS going on a buying spree isn't going to penetrate Sony market lead unless Sony does something really stupid.  Currently I do not see that happening.

I'm not speaking about slowing Sony down per user base metric that's not even the goal, but every time MS does a deal with 3rd party or acquisition that's less revenue for Sony as collateral damage. Sony would have made millions on Starfield and Redfall and now they're not. If MS make a 2nd party deal with any studio that title would be exclusive to Xbox were otherwise the studio would likely have worked on a different multiplat titles which would have brought Sony revenue. That's what I mean by reduces output/revenue from 3rd party.  Even if the brand is as strong in the end popularity wise they are still impacted in their bottom line/margin profit. Now in a normal scenario it would be business as usual, but a scenario where Xbox get an extra $69B/10 years, Sony bottom line is sure to be impacted in many ways.

Machiavellian said:

I agree that MS moves under Phil has been very well calculated and real improvement to the brand, but Sony mindshare is extremely strong and they have used their market dominance very successfully in keep MS at bay

True but even then Sony reacted to many of Xbox move, doubt Sony would have made all those recent acquisition without MS 2018 ones and the Bethesda one.  At the end of the day Xbox will increase it's competitivness, Xbox quadrupled it's number of studios from 2018 to now but the investment is only now starting to produce result so no doubt in my mind that when the actual output match the production capacity Xbox MAU will significantly increase. 

Machiavellian said:

I agree on this point, I just believe that GP is a long term plan for success not in the short.  When I say long term, I am see probably 2 more generations before it really bear fruit.

Latest news we saw on the matter GP already is profitable even if the market still small so fruit bearing part is only a matter of opinion and the goal MS exec have for GP. IMO, short term goal for GP is to maintain and increase lead over competition and really be seen as the Netflix of gaming, that's why they need to act swiftly and decisively. 

Last edited by EpicRandy - on 02 March 2023

Around the Network
EpicRandy said:

Latest news we saw on the matter GP already is profitable.

Yeah I wouldn't fully trust what PR says on this matter.

Cause we saw that several times with similar stuff

"Xbox is doing fantastic" "you're under oath" "okay we never made a dime on console sales for over 20 years"

"GP actually helps sales" "you're under oath" "okay games on the GP tends to have lesser sales after [X] month"

"Game pass have now X million users" then "Game Pass is growing" then "I mean at some point you reach a seiling point you can't go beyond'"



SKMBlake said:
EpicRandy said:

Latest news we saw on the matter GP already is profitable.

Yeah I wouldn't fully trust what PR says on this matter.

Cause we saw that several times with similar stuff

"Xbox is doing fantastic" "you're under oath" "okay we never made a dime on console sales for over 20 years"

"GP actually helps sales" "you're under oath" "okay games on the GP tends to have lesser sales after [X] month"

"Game pass have now X million users" then "Game Pass is growing" then "I mean at some point you reach a seiling point you can't go beyond'"

None of the statement above are mutually exclusive and actually PR statement can actually be used in legal context. Statement like "Xbox is doing fantastic" is just an opinion and Xbox profits status does not make it wrong either. However statement like "GamePass is profitable" is factual in nature and can have direct consequence on stock value if the statement is false then MS may get into trouble for this with both the SEC and investor. Just ask Elon Musk in learned (not really cause of extreme narcissism) the hard way.



EpicRandy said:
SKMBlake said:

Yeah I wouldn't fully trust what PR says on this matter.

Cause we saw that several times with similar stuff

"Xbox is doing fantastic" "you're under oath" "okay we never made a dime on console sales for over 20 years"

"GP actually helps sales" "you're under oath" "okay games on the GP tends to have lesser sales after [X] month"

"Game pass have now X million users" then "Game Pass is growing" then "I mean at some point you reach a seiling point you can't go beyond'"

None of the statement above are mutually exclusive and actually PR statement can actually be used in legal context. Statement like "Xbox is doing fantastic" is just an opinion and Xbox profits status does not make it wrong either. However statement like "GamePass is profitable" is factual in nature and can have direct consequence on stock value if the statement is false then MS may get into trouble for this with both the SEC and investor. Just ask Elon Musk in learned (not really cause of extreme narcissism) the hard way.

Yeah he said "it's profitable for us", whatever that means.



SKMBlake said:
EpicRandy said:

None of the statement above are mutually exclusive and actually PR statement can actually be used in legal context. Statement like "Xbox is doing fantastic" is just an opinion and Xbox profits status does not make it wrong either. However statement like "GamePass is profitable" is factual in nature and can have direct consequence on stock value if the statement is false then MS may get into trouble for this with both the SEC and investor. Just ask Elon Musk in learned (not really cause of extreme narcissism) the hard way.

Yeah he said "it's profitable for us", whatever that means.

It means it's profitable...



SKMBlake said:
EpicRandy said:

None of the statement above are mutually exclusive and actually PR statement can actually be used in legal context. Statement like "Xbox is doing fantastic" is just an opinion and Xbox profits status does not make it wrong either. However statement like "GamePass is profitable" is factual in nature and can have direct consequence on stock value if the statement is false then MS may get into trouble for this with both the SEC and investor. Just ask Elon Musk in learned (not really cause of extreme narcissism) the hard way.

Yeah he said "it's profitable for us", whatever that means.

Well with this statement:

  • An investor or wanna be investor might reasonably think that GamePass is profitable 
  • It is unreasonable as an investor or wanna be investor to take this statement as GamePass not actually being profitable.

So the statement is clear enough that for it to be judged as factual in nature.

We also have older news from 2020 where MS clearly stated that GamePass was "not profitable at the moment" so it add weight to those statement being accurate.

2020

2022