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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

Zkuq said:

I guess this is a highlight of a major weakness of democracy itself, as the West doesn't seem to be able to look at the big picture that reaches beyond the next elections. Letting Russia win this war seems like it would be a major strategic blunder in the long term - but sure, not a problem for anyone other than Ukraine in the short term.

I agree that letting Russia win is a major blunder, but so do all of my mates who are a mix of right/left leaning people. I would be surprised if European elections would swing either way because of this single issue, we seem to be largely on the same page; Russia must not win. It's our politicians who keep blaming Russia for the cost of living crisis, but no one I know is fooled by this and no one is blaming Ukrainians for anything. I think the major weakness of Western democracy has been that politicians are openly representing everyone's interests but their own people. Corporate puppets, voted in by the people and paid by corporations, including the weapons industry. 

Unless I am so out of loop with recent polls and European media coverage? Obviously, the USA is a separate case study, but it's unfortunate that ultimately, they'll be the one to decide how long Ukraine will be supported for. 

I generally agree with your message, but voters are blamed for everything even when they vote in the "correct" candidate while their living standards fall year after year. The vast majority of Americans, even republicans, don't support the genocidal far right regime massacring children they way Biden does, his support has crashed among his own base over 2 months ago, he's risking his re-election chances, and he's barely doing anything to correct course, literally no one asked him to die on this genocidal hill except AIPAC. 

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 07 December 2023

Around the Network



An Istanbul-managed armaments plant is thought to be churning out tens of thousands of critically-needed 122mm Soviet-standard artillery ammunition for the Ukrainian military, despite declarations by President Erdoğan that Ankara’s position on the war in Ukraine is neutral and that Turkey could act as an honest broker and intermediary for both sides.

Video and photographs posted on Telegram by Ukrainian volunteer and civil activist Roman Bochkala on Monday showed him holding a Ukrainian flag inside a factory filled with partially-assembled 122mm artillery shells, among other images.

The munitions, Bochkala stated in the video, are being produced in three shifts running 24 hours a day with the ammunition destined for use by the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) against Russian forces – although he did not make clear where the factory was located.

New Source of Critical Artillery Ammo for Ukraine Spotted: Turkey or Azerbaijan?

The US infighting may fan fears in European and Asian capitals looking to US leadership and support amid more aggressive Russian and Chinese actions. For some observers, tying domestic political demands to a pressing foreign policy priority sets a disturbing precedent — especially when the US is ostensibly supporting a democracy against an aggressor that seeks to undermine American influence.

"There will be a sense of shock across the world for anyone that relies on US security guarantees — Tokyo, Seoul, Canberra, let alone Taipei — that you just can't rely on these Americans because they're not serious," said Max Bergmann, a Russia expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington and a former US official.

He said the political clash "is potentially hamstringing US foreign policy support for Ukraine but also general American reliability for allies and partners around the world."

Ukraine Funding Fight Stokes New Fears Over US Reliability - Bloomberg

US Senate Republicans block Ukraine, Israel aid bill over border dispute

An emergency spending bill to provide billions of dollars in new security assistance for Ukraine and Israel was blocked in the U.S. Senate on Wednesday as Republicans pressed their demands for tougher measures to control immigration at the U.S. border with Mexico.

The vote was 49 in favor to 51 against, leaving the $110.5 billion measure short of the 60 votes needed in the 100-member Senate to pave the way to start debate, threatening President Joe Biden's push to provide new aid before the end of 2023.

The vote was along party lines, with every Senate Republican voting no along with Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent who generally votes with Democrats but had expressed concerns about funding Israel's "current inhumane military strategy" against Palestinians.

The bill would provide about $50 billion in new security assistance for Ukraine, as well as money for humanitarian and economic aid for the government in Kyiv, plus $14 billion for Israel as it battles Hamas in Gaza.

US Senate Republicans Block Ukraine, Israel Aid Bill Over Border Dispute | Reuters





More weapons to come.

Ukraine & US signed a memorandum on joint production and exchange of technical data - during Defense Industries Conference DFNC1: US Edition.

Grateful to the SecDef Lloyd Austin, the US Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo, our colleagues from the State Department and the US National Security Council for taking lead in organization of the forum.

An open and honest dialogue between 🇺🇦 and 🇺🇸 governments and companies about the localization of production in Ukraine, the current needs and capabilities of our countries, opportunities for fostering cooperation, investments, and developing joint ventures.



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U.S. DoD Announces FrankenSAM Air Defense Technology Sharing With Ukraine / The New Voice of Ukraine



Newly committed aid has reached a new low between August to October 2023 – an almost 90 percent drop compared to the same period in 2022. Ukraine now increasingly relies on a core group of donors such as the US, Germany, and the Nordic and Eastern European countries that continue to pledge and deliver both financial aid and important weaponry, such as F-16 fighter jets.  

In the period between August and October 2023 the amount of newly committed aid dropped sharply, with the value of new packages totaling just EUR 2.11 billion – the lowest amount since January 2022. The main remaining group of active donors are individual European countries, such as Croatia, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland, as well as NATO countries like Canada and the United Kingdom. Moreover, Ukraine can rely on the large previously pledged multi-year programs.

When focusing on committed military aid, the EU countries continue to catch up, and now surpassed the U.S. In particular Germany and the Nordic countries (Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland) earmarked significant new assistance in the past months. Of the total 25 billion in heavy weapon commitments (Jan. 2022 -–Oct. 2023), the US accounts for 43 percent of the total value, while all EU countries and institutions together account for 47 percent.  

The U.S. remain the largest military donor, with total commitments of EUR 44 billion. But Germany is catching up fast, with total military commitments now exceeding EUR 17 billion.

Ukraine Support Tracker | Kiel Institute

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 07 December 2023

Republicans are utter fucking scum.





LurkerJ said:

I agree that letting Russia win is a major blunder, but so do all of my mates who are a mix of right/left leaning people. I would be surprised if European elections would swing either way because of this single issue, we seem to be largely on the same page; Russia must not win. It's our politicians who keep blaming Russia for the cost of living crisis, but no one I know is fooled by this and no one is blaming Ukrainians for anything. I think the major weakness of Western democracy has been that politicians are openly representing everyone's interests but their own people. Corporate puppets, voted in by the people and paid by corporations, including the weapons industry. 

The biggest troublemakers in regard to Ukraine seem to be the ones that have quite clearly spoken against supporting Ukraine, and people have voted for them despite that - or because of it.

LurkerJ said:

Unless I am so out of loop with recent polls and European media coverage? Obviously, the USA is a separate case study, but it's unfortunate that ultimately, they'll be the one to decide how long Ukraine will be supported for.

Well, I'm definitely out of the loop for the most part, but I do catch some of the more important developments. I'm more familiar with the political situation in my own country, but we have a strong consensus about supporting Ukraine. I guess neighbouring Russia with a long border is eye-opening, compared to what it looks like when you have several countries to act as a buffer. There are many countries in Europe that aren't directly threatened by Russia in at least 10-15 years, even in the worst case.

LurkerJ said:

I generally agree with your message, but voters are blamed for everything even when they vote in the "correct" candidate while their living standards fall year after year.

I'm not interested in going very deep into this discussion, but I'm arriving at the conclusion that a very large portion of voters simply are dumb, selfish, over-confident, and driven by emotions (despite often thinking otherwise). I'm not sure how well it relates to whether the voters are getting what they vote for, but my hunch is that in many cases they really are getting what they vote for, but they probably don't realize it's not what they really want, because many things are actually quite complex.