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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

An anti Ukrainian and EU party has won the Dutch elections by a lot. Doesn't say they can form a coalition, but their influence will be big. So I think we can expect less from The Netherlands unfortunately.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

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Farsala said:
Ryuu96 said:

Looks like Germany gave more military aid than all countries combined aside from the Us. And its amount is almost half of the Us in terms of military aid. And this being a largely demilitarized economy. And as seen with today's announcement, that contribution is only growing.

France and Belgium don't pull their weight if you see this. Poland (isn't that rich and also builds a good army), Japan (other side of the planet), Denmark (quite small and not that big of an economy) and Canada do a lot.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

Qwark said:
Farsala said:

Looks like Germany gave more military aid than all countries combined aside from the Us. And its amount is almost half of the Us in terms of military aid. And this being a largely demilitarized economy. And as seen with today's announcement, that contribution is only growing.

France and Belgium don't pull their weight if you see this. Poland (isn't that rich and also builds a good army), Japan (other side of the planet), Denmark (quite small and not that big of an economy) and Canada do a lot.

France does more than it seems in pure financial terms. They deliver lots of artillery and AA (30 Ceasar SP Artillery pieces out of a total stock of 76, plus all of their 155mm towed howitzers and lots of different shells, rockets and rocket systems). However, the really expensive stuff, like tanks and IFVs, aren't sent by France since they don't have the tooling and no replacement in sight for the Leclerc tank while the VBCI IFV is wheeled and thus not really appropriate for the Ukrainian theatre.

Also, their equipment tends to be cheaper by design (Their new APC is contractually obliged to cost less than 1M, the Bradley by contrast already cost much than that in the 80's), so the monetary value of what they are sending is lower, too.

Edit: Belgium, on the other hand, is well-known to massively underfund the military and rely on their neighbours and NATO partners for their defence, so even if they wanted, they simply don't have anything to send. Until recently they barely sent more than Luxembourg, a country with an "Army" of a grand total of less than 800 soldiers (We always joke that if Germany wants to conquer us again, they'd send the firefighters from Trier this time around).

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 23 November 2023

Qwark said:

An anti Ukrainian and EU party has won the Dutch elections by a lot. Doesn't say they can form a coalition, but their influence will be big. So I think we can expect less from The Netherlands unfortunately.

This is an issue which Western politicians don't seem to understand or care about when it comes to their trickle out support, as time goes on, support for Ukraine will drop, to some people it will become yet another war that isn't their issue because it doesn't affect them. These guys don't even have to talk about Ukraine to win, they simply scream "IMMIGRANTS" and people rush out to vote for them.

If Putin wants to have pro-Russia or anti-Ukraine politicians win across Europe all he has to do is tell them to blame immigrants for every single problem a country faces and people eat that shit up, it's an issue particularly with Europe, it's such an easy win and scapegoat for politicians in Europe to blame everything on immigrants or people "different" from them.

In UK immigrants have been blamed for everything for as long as I can remember, coincidentally, the "issue" has never been fixed and something always is blamed for why we can't fix the "issue" but I guess "luckily" the Tories aren't so far right that they stop supporting Ukraine and Labour is the opposition who will likely win and their support for Ukraine is good too but UK tends to follow USA and if USA lowers support then UK might too.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 23 November 2023



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France backtracks on EU-only ammo for Ukraine. But before Paris throws in the towel, it first wants proof that the EU will actually miss its target of sending 1 million rounds by March.

"As long as we haven't come to that conclusion, we won't do it [buy abroad], but if we have to adjust, we'll adjust," they said.

That's a significant shift from France's traditional position of encouraging national governments to buy European arms and ammunition.

France Backtracks On EU-Only Ammo for Ukraine – POLITICO

The agreement provides for Bulgaria to supply the armoured personnel carriers and available armament, as well as spare parts, all surplus to the requirements of the Interior Ministry. The vehicles were acquired decades ago by the communist regime of the time.

Vuzrazhdane claimed that by providing the armoured personnel carriers to Ukraine, Bulgaria was giving Ukraine “a billion leva” and the party said that the vehicles should be used for protecting Bulgaria’s border.

Bulgaria’s Parliament Ratifies Deal On APCs For Ukraine – The Sofia Globe

Ukraine's strongest supporters in Washington are looking at the three-week sprint after Thanksgiving as their best remaining hope of getting aid to the country.

The dynamics of the GOP House have alarmed the West Wing. Speaker Mike Johnson has indicated that he'll at some point bring a vote on Ukraine, but those in the White House do not yet have a clear read on the new Republican leader or his negotiating style, according to two senior aides not authorized to speak publicly about private deliberations.

On two occasions already, Democrats tried but failed to get aid to Ukraine in a must-pass funding bill. With another deadline to spark action not coming until the latest stopgap funding bills expire in late January and early February, many of Congress' strongest Ukraine backers fear the country can't wait that long.

"I don't know that Ukraine can survive until February of 2024," Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) said. "My sense is they start to run short on ammunition in the next several weeks."

Democrats Remain Vexed By The House As Ukraine Funding Hits Crisis Point - POLITICO



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Qwark said:

France and Belgium don't pull their weight if you see this. Poland (isn't that rich and also builds a good army), Japan (other side of the planet), Denmark (quite small and not that big of an economy) and Canada do a lot.

France does more than it seems in pure financial terms. They deliver lots of artillery and AA (30 Ceasar SP Artillery pieces out of a total stock of 76, plus all of their 155mm towed howitzers and lots of different shells, rockets and rocket systems). However, the really expensive stuff, like tanks and IFVs, aren't sent by France since they don't have the tooling and no replacement in sight for the Leclerc tank while the VBCI IFV is wheeled and thus not really appropriate for the Ukrainian theatre.

Also, their equipment tends to be cheaper by design (Their new APC is contractually obliged to cost less than 1M, the Bradley by contrast already cost much than that in the 80's), so the monetary value of what they are sending is lower, too.

Edit: Belgium, on the other hand, is well-known to massively underfund the military and rely on their neighbours and NATO partners for their defence, so even if they wanted, they simply don't have anything to send. Until recently they barely sent more than Luxembourg, a country with an "Army" of a grand total of less than 800 soldiers (We always joke that if Germany wants to conquer us again, they'd send the firefighters from Trier this time around).

Sounds like excuses to me. I bet there is something countries like Italy, France and Spain could do. Germany as example is sending their Iris-T systems to Ukraine before they even get them themselves. Brand new equipment. I'm sure the other countries also get some air defense or other equipment which they could send to Ukraine first. 

Stuff like the tanks is obviously another story but yeah, right now nobody can tell me that the other big European countries just can't do more...

But it looks really bad for Ukraine now. Wilders won in Netherlands, German politicians can't get their shit together right now to even free money for anything so that money for Ukraine looks even worse. Then what's happening in USA and so on...

Last edited by crissindahouse - on 23 November 2023

It ain't just sending equipment either but stuff like posted above.

"EU capitals should mobilise investment & cajole arms makers into expanding capacity, by pooling orders & signing over a longer term.'"

We need to be doing this tenfold, Russia is in war economy mode, their entire country is turning to war production, meanwhile Western nations are like "eh, we'll throw a few contracts here and there" Arms makers are telling Western countries to sort their shit out even, they're basically saying "listen, we want to support Ukraine but we need the orders and we need long term commitments to start up new manufacturing"

It's also crazy because shit like the above creates jobs but nobody seems interested in talking about that angle.

The West should be domestically producing thousands of drones, artillery, ammo for Ukraine alongside sending our existing stock.

I also don't buy that any Western nation can't take a hit to their military, I don't care, there is nobody who is a threat to us other than Russia and China and we have the chance to end Russia's threat completely by supporting Ukraine. It feels like these massive militaries were built up just for show. China will be deterred if we win even if our militaries take a notable hit.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 23 November 2023

"A corresponding coalition has been established – the air defense development coalition. The leaders in its organization are Germany and France. I am grateful for this leadership. I am also grateful to every country that participates in these efforts, which enable our cities and villages to be more protected from Russian attacks.

Not everything can be said publicly yet, but Ukraine's sky shield is getting more powerful literally every month."

Ukrainska Pravda

I'd say defensive aid has been mostly good, of course I'd love more and they should be more sent all the time, Ukraine is a massive country and defensive aid is equally as important as offensive aid but I believe support for defensive aid has been overall strong, among all the usual air defence systems, then we have IRIS-T and Patriots which are among the best in the world. Things still get through but it's unavoidable.

It's the offensive aid which is severely lacking, Imo.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 23 November 2023