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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

crissindahouse said:

Sweden would also send jets to Ukraine if they get their NATO membership which is fair to ask for I guess.

They should say: Either they'll go to Kiev with their weapons or to Ankara unload their weapons. Turkey chooses.



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Nusma said:

As a german myself, I thought quite a lot about this. The first thing that comes to mind is the notorious german angst, of course. Deeply rooted insecurity leads germans to be very planning and risk-averse, that's kind of the stereotype and as with many stereotypes, there's truth to that. However, thinking about it further, this line of analysis seems quite one-dimensional. We are in a complicated geopolitical game, after all, and reducing the actions of one player to something as simple as cowardice seems amiss, especially when all evidence suggests that there actually isn't that much to be afraid of, as Ryuu laid out so many times already. Playing into this german angst stereotype, having the world think of germany as cowardly, that might just be what's intended by the german government, as a veil for their true strategy.

Fact is that the war in Ukraine is bad for Russia. Really bad. It's an economic, demographic and geopolitical disaster. A fast victory for Ukraine might be the best possible outcome for Russia at this point, in my opinion. Not for Putin and his cronies, oh no, but for Russia overall, I think so. On the other hand, the worst thing for Russia would be a long, drawn out grind, where no victory can be won, but where the people in charge still can't back down because that would hurt them politically. It's a bit like the US involvement in Afghanistan, a conflict of 20 years and with a monetary cost of mayben 1 trillion USD, depending on who you ask. In the end it was all for nothing, of course. There was no lasting victory, it was just bad for the US (and even more so for Afghanistan, but that's beside the point), a giant waste of life and resources that in turn played into the hands of its adversaries. Every time that conflict was prolonged it was a win for Russia and China, essentially. And I think it's possible that we're seeing the same dynamic here.

My fear is that the secret goal of my country (and maybe the US as well) is to ruin Russia and not to help Ukraine. That they don't want the Kerch Bridge to be destroyed, that they don't want to deprive Russia of its ability to wring itself dry by cutting off the supply lines. Don't stop your enemy while he makes mistakes, something like that is how the saying goes. The more Russia ruins itself, the more incapable and dorsile they might be later on. This might also mean the end of their influence in central europe. And of course their vast natural resources won't go anywhere in the meantime, no matter how many young Russians are getting slaughtered.

Although I'm a bit torn on the resources angle. The thing is, Brittain and France, the two countries that already provided cruise missiles to Ukraine, have one thing in common: They both don't benefit very much from russian resources. France, of course, is well known for its abundance of nuclear power, while the UK has its own gas fields, as well as nuclear and other sources. Germany, on the other hand, well... let's just say we're getting by for now, but our energy prices certainly are a problem. Cheap russian gas would be great for us and since we're so awfully nice not to provide those dreaded cruise missiles, Russia might just be inclined to accept us as customers again. And since they ruined themselves so hard with years of fruitless war, their leverage would be awfully small. Beggars can't be choosers after all. Ideally Russia becomes a third world country that's getting exploited like a third world country. I'm not sure how plausible this line of thinking is though.

What seems more plausible to me is the thought of ruining Russia to weaken its influence on the world. Just geopolitical power plays, fought on the back of Ukraine and its people. One less ally for North Korea, Iran and everyone else in Russias back yard. And one big warning signal towards China, of course. For some, all that might be well worth the price of thousands of ukrainian lives that would otherwise be spared with a swift victory. Kind of disgusting, if true and I actually hope I'm wrong.

Occam's Razor helps here.

We've seen the current pattern of Scholz's decision-making since the very beginning of the Ukraine war, so the likelihood that he had an elaborate long-term plan to wear Russia down is incredibly low. I'd actually rule it out completely, because if you compare his decision-making in foreign politics to his decision-making in inner politics, you'll find that it's very much the same.

He has repeatedly given in to the demands of the FDP, the smallest faction in his government coalition. He is so afraid of the coalition breaking up, forcing an early election and making the SPD lose its frontrunner spot - current surveys put them in third place way behind their main competitor CDU - that he rarely says anything against the FDP. If he wasn't a coward, he would tell those loonies that they have much more to lose than anyone else with an earlier election, because the FDP is on the brink of getting kicked out of the parliament, and being the plain obvious culprit for a breakup of the coalition would likely push them off the cliff. But instead Scholz sticks to his guns of being the reasonable, considerate and well-meaning guy (in his own and his party's perception) who wants to keep things peacefully despite being in the position of more power.

The Ukraine war has very similar variables. Russia has more to lose than anyone else, Germany is on the side which is much more powerful than the enemy and any objective analysis suggests that there's no need to hold back and play nice.

Cowardice is just how Scholz is, regardless of the subject and situation. Admittedly, this helped him win the last election, because the Germans viewed him as the closest successor to the Merkel-style of politics despite him belonging to a different political party. By now he should realize that continuing this role will not win him another election, but apparently he and his party are content with riding out the final two years of their government time before taking a then inevitable fall.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.



Russia is looking to exploit the attention and focus which is now on Israel, as funding for Ukraine will be difficult for Biden. This would be the best time for Russia to conduct an offensive, as I'm sure they've read The Art of War.



shavenferret said:

Russia is looking to exploit the attention and focus which is now on Israel, as funding for Ukraine will be difficult for Biden. This would be the best time for Russia to conduct an offensive, as I'm sure they've read The Art of War.

Eh. What is happening in Israel is horrific and Israel did massively drop the ball in their intelligence agency but Israel's army is very capable and very powerful, they don't really need military assistance from America, or at least, they wouldn't need much, they've been getting it for years already and some of the best equipment, the only way they would is if another country got involved but that's unlikely as Israel has nukes. World is going to shit and I feel sorry for the innocents that are going to die on both sides but I see no reason why Israel's situation should take away funding from Ukraine. As I said before, Biden still has about $2bn in the PDA for Ukraine, Republicans still majority supported Ukraine aid in the most recent bills and if worst comes to worst, Biden has Lend-Lease to fallback on (which I would hate for him to have to use but it's still a viable option).

I don't really agree that this would be a good time for Russia to conduct an offensive because it hasn't changed anything in regards to the military situation on the ground in Ukraine, Russia has been trying and utterly failing to conduct offensive actions for months now and as a result we've seen the videos and images of dozens of vehicle losses, Russia has been trying offensives in Vuhledar as an example for months now and been getting smashed every single time, I truly believe that Russia aside from minor settlement captures has lost all offensive capability so they're opting now to (mostly) hunker down and hope to wait the West out with what they've already taken, the only successful offensive from Russia for almost a year now was Bakhmut and that took about 9 months to complete and it wasn't even done by the Russian army, it was done by Wagner.

Russia still attempts offensive actions along the entire front but Imo they're incredibly stupid to do so, as we can see from my tweets above, dozens of losses in a couple of days ending in utter failure, Russia is obsessed with capturing more of Ukraine to the detriment of their armies capability, the smart thing to do now would be to hunker down completely and wait for the West to grow tired of supporting Ukraine, no more offensive actions at all, but Russia can't help itself. Ukraine already has an advantage in equipment losses even during an offensive which should not be happening, the defender should be inflicting more losses on the attacker but somehow Ukraine has a (visually confirmed) advantage, so in an offensive that advantage becomes even worse for Russia. They just don't appear to have any major offensive capability as it stands right now.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 08 October 2023

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I don't see Russia even be able to take much new ground. Maybe a few square kilometres here or there but nothing major.

It's all about defending what they have now for them to get Ukraine to the point to give up to retake cities like Mariupol but I really doubt they will ever be able for a new big attack to take a bigger city or anything. Especially when F16 will come and before them, Russia also won't have rebuild enough of their own equipment.

Well, this is when Ukraine will at least get a decent support the next years. If the support will completely collapse then Russia will win. They've already increased their Military budget to $110 billion for next year which is in reality even more as it sounds because you can get obviously more for that in Russia as in USA, UK or Germany

Last edited by crissindahouse - on 08 October 2023

The only other wild card is Putins health. Yall seeem pretty plugged into the news so im guessing that you understand putin has some major health issues. If he deteriorates quickly, then the war could end, as I don't see his successor to want to prolong the war.



JFC. That WarMonitor dude is a pro-Russian idiot.

And SentDefender is a clout chaser.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 08 October 2023

Hohol = Ethnic slur that Russians use against Ukrainians.

Musk deleted his tweet, but we know the sort of people he gets his "news" from now.

Absolutely despise this fucking idiot (Musk).

Btw there's two WarMonitors, there's this moron above and then there's another called WarMonitor3 who is cool.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 08 October 2023

Ryuu96 said:

JFC. That WarMonitor dude is a pro-Russian idiot.

And SentDefender is a clout chaser.

Musk really manages to get lower and lower.

I just hope he doesn't follow in Trump's footsteps one day and wants to become president...

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 08 October 2023