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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

Bofferbrauer2 said:
crissindahouse said:

Every new week our government updates the list of support to Ukraine I hope to see some more Leopard 1 but still only those few from some weeks ago. I wonder how long those pledged will take to get delivered. At least two more IRIS-T launchers this week.

Do you have a link as to where one can see those updates?

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992

They don't list the weaponry of our Ringtausch program, though. Countries like Czechia or Greece gave some of their tanks to Ukraine because they got free replacements from Germany

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html

that list is for all countries and their known supplies but only includes "heavy weaponry" and not the amount of ammunition and stuff like that. 

Last edited by crissindahouse - on 18 August 2023

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I have a few questions for this thread:
- Does this thread foster discourse and open discussion towards constructivism and critical exchange of ideas?
- Do you truly care about Ukrainians and their lives? If so, how much do you care inside?
- What are you hoping for Ukraine to achieve through this conflict? Does the goal justify the cost?
- Is Russia being threatened by NATO and if not explain.
- What would have happened if Ukraine had stayed neutral and refused America's influence? Speak cost of life please.
- Why do you trust the west (USA, European countries)? Do they have a track-record of being clean in the past 50 years geopolitically?
- Is hatred towards Russians during this war at this moment racism in your view, or is it somehow exempt? What is your justification for hatred, and can hatred be justified? Is it acceptable to despise a person for the country they are born in and are loyal to without knowing anything about them?
- How does this conflict lead us towards a better world?
- Are you proud of the current social fabric of the USA, Canada and European countries, the degradation of traditionally Christian values such as the traditional family, proliferation of sexual promiscuity, pornography, and media that encourages greed, egocentrism, hate, fear, deceit and blasphemy? Do you think this is a good direction for modern civilization? Is this a societal model you would like to see a traditionally orthodox Christian country like Ukraine follow? What are the implications for Ukraine's moral structure?

Please answer responsibly, millions of Ukrainians and Russians are dead due to this conflict. This means husbands leaving widows and orphans behind, lives meant for engineering, law, dentistry, medicine, business, and any other way of serving society being erased, dreams, hopes, loves, desires of bonding, wiped between a clash of superpowers.
Thank you for your time and thought.



Not sure how your thread ban was lifted but since there was no discussion on the matter of lifting it, I am therefore reissuing it as the thread ban should still stand. This is likely a technical mistake so I'm not going to do any further punishment for going around the thread ban as it would be the sites fault (technical glitch).

And I can clearly see where those "harmless questions" are going from a mile away, so I ain't bothering responding to them.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 19 August 2023

OK you got us. We should really be more in favour of Russia, Iran, North Korea and Belarus. I tell all the refugees from Ukraine who work in my company that they talk nonsense because some Russian lover opened my eyes on VGC. And NATO was obviously just years away from attacking Russia but Russia proved how strong they are so that NATO isn't a threat anymore. Putin smart





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CV-90s will be produced in Ukraine in the future.

3. Ukrainian pilots are already taking part in testing “Gripen” fighter aircraft. We discussed further steps to transfer them to Ukraine.

4. We are preparing the transfer of Sweden’s new, 13th security assistance package.

5. Sweden joined the Peace Formula, more specifically its items on the restoration of nuclear safety, justice, environment protection, and humanitarian mine clearance.

6. Ukraine will be ready to open EU accession talks this year and we have Sweden’s support on our path to the EU.

7. Our teams will discuss the bilateral document on security guarantees following the G7 Declaration last month.

8. Sweden stands ready to provide advanced water pumping systems to restore water supply after Russian terror act at the Kakhovka Hydroelectric Plant.

9. Sweden will take active part in Ukraine’s recovery, including with the engagement of private capital.

10. Ukraine counts on Sweden, Swedish regions and companies taking patronage over Ukrainian regions and spheres which require recovery after Russian strikes.

I am grateful to Sweden for its firm and consistent support. Together, we protect life, freedom, and our common values.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 19 August 2023

padib said:

I have a few questions for this thread:
- Does this thread foster discourse and open discussion towards constructivism and critical exchange of ideas?
- Do you truly care about Ukrainians and their lives? If so, how much do you care inside?
- What are you hoping for Ukraine to achieve through this conflict? Does the goal justify the cost?
- Is Russia being threatened by NATO and if not explain.
- What would have happened if Ukraine had stayed neutral and refused America's influence? Speak cost of life please.
- Why do you trust the west (USA, European countries)? Do they have a track-record of being clean in the past 50 years geopolitically?
- Is hatred towards Russians during this war at this moment racism in your view, or is it somehow exempt? What is your justification for hatred, and can hatred be justified? Is it acceptable to despise a person for the country they are born in and are loyal to without knowing anything about them?
- How does this conflict lead us towards a better world?
- Are you proud of the current social fabric of the USA, Canada and European countries, the degradation of traditionally Christian values such as the traditional family, proliferation of sexual promiscuity, pornography, and media that encourages greed, egocentrism, hate, fear, deceit and blasphemy? Do you think this is a good direction for modern civilization? Is this a societal model you would like to see a traditionally orthodox Christian country like Ukraine follow? What are the implications for Ukraine's moral structure?

Please answer responsibly, millions of Ukrainians and Russians are dead due to this conflict. This means husbands leaving widows and orphans behind, lives meant for engineering, law, dentistry, medicine, business, and any other way of serving society being erased, dreams, hopes, loves, desires of bonding, wiped between a clash of superpowers.
Thank you for your time and thought.

1 Pro-Russia views are not entertained, if that’s what you mean.

2 How long is a piece of string? I support Ukraine in their struggle against the Russian invaders. 
3 Ukraine drives Russia out and reclaims all land within its internationally recognised borders. As its has a clear need for a deterrent that its can’t deliver on its own, it should subsequently be admitted to Nato.

4 No, it not. Russia uses flawed and circular logic in its justification that it is. Nato is a defensive organisation. The only way it poses a threat to Russia is if Russia were to attack a Nato member. Russia knows this but also detests that countries formerly in its sphere of influence are now Nato members. It losing that influence is something it cannot accept. Its used frozen conflicts in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine to prevent such ties from developing further.

5 It would be at the mercy of Russia’s whims. It broke away from Russia’s influence in the 2014 revolution. To say Ukraine is under ‘America’s influence’ is misleading.

6 That is a fair point and certainly people do take it to far. A user has been thread banned for, amongst other things, going to far in his vitriol towards Russia and Russians. I despise Putin and his ilk and I shed no tears for any Russian who supports him, but certainly do not apply it with a broad brush to all. Plenty of Russians have pushed back and they do not deserve the same ill feelings.

7 That ultimately will depend on the outcome. If Russia wins the world certainly won’t be better for it, same if it becomes a frozen conflict. Ukraine winning would act as a check in Russia’s agenda and that certainly doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me.

8 That is a entirely tangential point that seems to do more with your complains with Western politics and religion and given I’m not a Christian it just made me cringe. No society has ever been perfect, with plenty of ills during Christianity’s heyday. I don’t know how Ukraine will develop after the war and I don’t it will become a mirror of other Western countries, certainly not overnight, but I can also see why they don’t want to go back to Russia. For one, they have a leader who is law unto himself and abuses the church as a way to legitimise himself. Not sure if that’s the sort of Christian way you’d condone.



despite the fact, this is an obvious fishing expedition to try to stir the conversation from its intended purpose and blame the victim along the way, I'll still reply to it but by not quoting it directly as to make a generalist rebuttal of commonly shared misinformed opinion.

- Does this thread foster discourse and open discussion towards constructivism and critical exchange of ideas?

In some capacity yes but this thread mainly reports on the situation and discussion about potential development. Not sure why a focus on constructivism should be a barrier to sharing knowledge.

- Do you truly care about Ukrainians and their lives?

Yes, and Russians live too.

- If so, how much do you care inside?

 The same as a do for citizens of every other country.

- What are you hoping for Ukraine to achieve through this conflict?

Your question suggests you've been misinformed, Ukrainian did not provoke this conflict they are not the ones looking for gains they only stand for themselves and their right to be.

- Does the goal justify the cost?

Ask Russia, they're the sole responsible for this conflict and the one party looking to achieve goals out of it. Ukraine is only defending its existence and freedom.

- Is Russia being threatened by NATO and if not explain.

Maybe you should explain first what threat there is? please explain why, if nato was such a threat, Russia is still standing despite being in such a weak state all through the 90s and early 2000s. Why if nato was such a threat were they the ones fueling Russia's economy by buying their fossil fuel up to the point they were nearly dependent on them?

- What would have happened if Ukraine had stayed neutral and refused America's influence?

Explain what would be a neutral Ukraine for you. A Ukraine still under a Russian puppets leader curbing most Ukrainians' basic rights and sending all their wealth to Russian oligarchs in various corruption schemes? How is this considered neutral? The neutral your speak of is accepting to be hostage and dependent on the whims of a dictator.

- Speak cost of life please.

Again Russia is the sole responsible for every casualty in this conflict but even then you have to be blind to think Ukraine would fare better to remain the obedient slave of Russia. It was not that long ago that for the sake of promoting an idea because it wasn't shared amongst the West that Russia created the condition for the Holodomor that killed millions of Ukrainians.

Your position is the same as saying the West should have caved to nazi germany to prevent short-term casualty.

- Why do you trust the west (USA, European countries)?

Define trust and exactly what should be considered on that scale. 

- Do they have a track-record of being clean in the past 50 years geopolitically?

Much more so than Russia does. 

- Is hatred towards Russians during this war at this moment racism in your view, or is it somehow exempt?

Is the view that Ukrainians should have no say in their own future and freedom and accept to be no more than mere slaves to Russian oligarchs not racism towards Ukrainians and Ukrainian's right to decide for themselves?

I bare no hatred towards Russians that is not specifically limited to those in powers

- What is your justification for hatred, and can hatred be justified?

Your post is trying to justify Russian hatred for the West and Ukrainians or that at the very least a whole country should give in to Russia's hatred for the West. So ask this question to yourself.

Should Ukraine stop defending their territory to do philosophical thinking on this while Russia continues shelling them/murdering them, abducting their children to try to assimilate them as Russian?

- Is it acceptable to despise a person for the country they are born in and are loyal to without knowing anything about them?

Exactly no, but maybe you should tell that to Russian soldiers castrating Ukrainian pow, or Russian citizens blindly accepting their state propaganda and thinking of Ukraine as a low-class country fostering nazism.

- How does this conflict lead us toward a better world?

Ask Russia, again they are the ones that have initiated the conflict and are the ones with all the power to end it anytime.

- Are you proud of the current social fabric of the USA, Canada and European countries, the degradation of traditionally Christian values such as the traditional family, proliferation of sexual promiscuity, pornography, and media that encourages greed, egocentrism, hate, fear, deceit and blasphemy?

This loaded question share more info on yourself than anything else seriously. What kinds of social fabric would you be proud of? Ones where individual freedom is restricted and controlled by the state even when said expressing said freedom does not restrict anyone others freedom in any way. 

- Do you think this is a good direction for modern civilization?

Why would I not see this as preferable to a civilization where citizens are told what to believe in by 2000-year-old books and restricted in their liberty by a few rulers/ seekers of Christian traditionalist votes fueled agenda wants to restrict them to?

- Is this a societal model you would like to see a traditionally orthodox Christian country like Ukraine follow?

You look like you're the one looking to impose restrictions on how Ukrainians want to live their own lives by giving in to the Russian aggression. Ukraine are being punished because they decided to choose for themselves.

- What are the implications for Ukraine's moral structure?

In all probability, those implications are far better than the so frequently observed implications of the Russian moral structure.

Last edited by EpicRandy - on 19 August 2023

- What are you hoping for Ukraine to achieve through this conflict? Does the goal justify the cost?

Freedom justifies any cost, even if many do-gooders nowadays have forgotten its value.

- Are you proud of the current social fabric of the USA, Canada and European countries, the degradation of traditionally Christian values such as the traditional family, proliferation of sexual promiscuity, pornography, and media that encourages greed, egocentrism, hate, fear, deceit and blasphemy? Do you think this is a good direction for modern civilization? Is this a societal model you would like to see a traditionally orthodox Christian country like Ukraine follow? What are the implications for Ukraine's moral structure?

What I would define as blasphemy: If your countries leaders pretend to be devout Christians but then bomb theatres full of children, shopping malls in broad daylight full of people, residential buildings with people living and sleeping in there, systematically destroying critical infrastructure needed for basic living, causing large scale natural disasters or mining an area the size of a small country making it uninhabitable for several decades.
TLDR: If you truly are a Christian you would oppose Russia at all costs.

Please answer responsibly, millions of Ukrainians and Russians are dead due to this conflict. This means husbands leaving widows and orphans behind, lives meant for engineering, law, dentistry, medicine, business, and any other way of serving society being erased, dreams, hopes, loves, desires of bonding

Yes, it truly is a tragedy what Russias unjust and unprovoked terrorism has brought over Ukrainian people. The more important Ukraine wins this war so the culprit which is Russia and Russia alone gets punished for their crimes on humanity and other countries will not suffer the same misfortune at Russias hands.

wiped between a clash of superpowers

Pardon me, but which superpowers are you refering to exactly? On the one side there is Ukraine, one of the poorest countries in Europe and on the other there is Russia, a state with a GDP smaller than that of Italy. There are no superpowers involved in this war.



Well I am not going to copy/quote all those questions an will provide a simple answer.

Most people are not pro Ukraine or against Russia because they have a racist agenda or think the boogie man is out to get Russia.

This is what most people here would think:

Country A invaded Country B

Country A is the aggressor, therefore they must be stopped.

Country B is the one who is trying to defend itself, so various other Countries chose to help Country B push out Country A out of Country B's homeland.

It is that simple.

If America decided to suddenly invade Mexico, I am sure most of the world would condone that action and help out Mexico.

If Russia invaded China instead, same deal. We live in a time where science and technology has advanced so much that there is no need for us to invade each other. The human race needs to think of itself as one and work together to achieve a common goal of sustaining our species.